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Interview with The New York Times

During his two-week long working visit to the United States of America, the Rwandan President, H.E. Paul Kagame, attended the Millennium Summit of the United Nations. One day before addressing the Summit, President Kagame shared his thoughts about some of the challenges facing Rwanda and the world body with New York Times correspondent, Barbara Crossette.

QUESTION: Firstly, Mr. President it would be useful for our readers to re-state your own position as what you see as the minimum guarantees in Congo that would allow Rwanda to withdraw entirely. And perhaps you can also talk a little about the level to which you have already withdrawn?

ANSWER: First of all, what underlies our presence in Congo is our security. Security is the core issue. We have had problems before with Mobutu in the then Zaire and then we faced similar problems with Kabila in the DRC. We have a presence of former government soldiers (ex-FAR) and militia, who are supported by Kabila's government with the intention of destabilizing our country. We have been able to secure our borders, we have stability and security in our own country, but this has come at the cost of our presence in the DRC. We have always been of the belief that this is not a problem for Rwanda alone. This is a problem that should be dealt with by the International Community as a whole. To that extent, we have the Lusaka Peace Agreement that provides a number of possible solutions, but so far Kabila has made it impossible for us in the Region to move forward with the peace process. That core issue being security is our minimum, our bottom line. Either we provide that security in the manner we are doing at present or the International Community steps in to provide a formula for us.

QUESTION: How many former Interahamwe and ex-FAR are we talking about here?

ANSWER: They are several thousand, but I think what is more significant here is that they are being supported by the government in Kinshasa and perhaps from other areas.

QUESTION: Do you know where they are more or less? In other words, can you sort of pin-point the places where they are? ANSWER: They are located wherever the DRC government are located. They are in the north-west of the country, they are in the central part where fighting has been taking place recently. They are there in DRC government units, which is a problem for us.

QUESTION: Since they are mixed in with Kabila's forces, he would have to cooperate in sending them out. Is there a formula you can suggest to the United Nations? Is there some way to do this or will it rest entirely on Kabila? Will there have to be a gesture of good-will from him- and so far there have not been many such gestures from him towards the Lusaka Agreement?

ANSWER: It has to be upon the government of the DRC as well as their allies to join the process so that we can deal with these groups together. Kabila's allies are supporting him with the full knowledge that he is associated with these groups, so in some ways they can be implicated. They should be helpful in dealing with this problem.

QUESTION: Do his allies all have different reasons for being there, in your opinion? Why are the Zimbabweans, the Angolans and the Namibians there?

ANSWER: I really would not like to speak for them. It is true, however, that different countries are there for different reasons. We have already stated the reasons for our presence there. The Zimbabweans and others should be asked to explain their reasons. The Angolans talk about their own security as well in relation to UNITA, the Ugandans say the same in relation to some rebel groups said to be based in the DRC, and the Namibians can give their own explanations. What is clear is that there are different reasons and different degrees to each problem.

QUESTION: But none of them have the kind of security problem that you have to contend with?

ANSWER: No. I don't think there is anybody with equally good reasons to be there. The security reasons we face are more vital and critical than for anybody else.

QUESTION: I came to Rwanda with the Security Council delegation in May. Was that mission useful in any way? Has there been anything positive since then, or has it been backsliding?

ANSWER: The Security Council mission was useful in as far as acquainting the members with the region and the problems of the region is concerned. But when it comes to acting on those problems, we have not seen much headway.

QUESTION: It is a quite a cost for you to have to maintain a security presence. Is that a serious problem? Is it hurting the economy of Rwanda, the high cost of keeping that border safe?

ANSWER: Well naturally it is a problem. But the question we ask ourselves is what else can we do without security? At whatever cost it comes, we must bear it as a matter of priority, otherwise nothing else will take-off in Rwanda. We have, however, been able to manage whatever constraints there are in our presence in Congo. As to how much it hurts our economy, we have been able to operate within the required limits, and at the same time ensure our security.

QUESTION: The difficulties between you and the Ugandans, are they a thing of the past now? Is Kisangani pretty much cleared of...?

ANSWER:Yes, Kisangani is clear now and quiet. We have been talking to the Ugandans and we have, to a great extent, resolved our problems. These are things of the past.

QUESTION: The Security Council certainly wanted to use Kisangani as the first really big UN base, but they have this continuing problem of hostility towards the UN. The Security Council, Mr. Morjane and others are concerned that putting UN people in is going to put them under attack. How do you read this? Is it an effort to keep peacekeepers out?

ANSWER: Sometimes the reasons given by the UN are not very clear to us. Kisangani is as peaceful as any other place in the DRC, perhaps more so. The problems we had in Kisangani were between our own forces and those of Uganda, and we have since left Kisangani. It is generally quiet. We don't hear of any attacks from the Kinshasa government which is so far away from Kisangani. If attacks are anticipated, some precautionary measures should also be put in place. In their resolution to send troops and observers to Kisangani, the UN included troops to guard the observers. This should be adequate for any presence of UN personnel in Kisangani. If any additional measures are necessary, they should put them in place as well.

QUESTION: Are you going to be talking to any other African leaders about Congo while you are here? Is there any hope that you can have some substantive talks with others while here?

ANSWER: Nothing is officially scheduled for that. But naturally we will be talking to African leaders about different subjects which may include Congo.

QUESTION: What message have you brought in your speech to the Millennium Summit? What are you going to tell the UN?

ANSWER: I will bring up a number of things at the Summit. One is particularly to do with my country which we feel should be treated as a special case. This is a country that suffered genocide a few years ago, a country that lost a million of its people, that had so many millions of its people displaced, and yet there hasn't been much attention in dealing with those problems as far as support for recovery in Rwanda is concerned. These organizations, be it the UN or other International Organizations approach the problems of Rwanda as they do for other countries. We think they are not putting our situation into full account. We think that they should realize that Rwanda is a special case that they have to deal with differently. The other issue, in general terms, relates to the problems of poverty and disease on the African continent. We think there has to a clear approach as to how the rich countries help us to deal with these problems. It is not simply a question of keeping the poor alive. There should be an attempt to improve their livelihood so that real development can be realised. So far there hasn't been enough done in that direction. I think that is a matter that has to be raised. Of course, all this gives rise to discussions about how different institutions should be reformed. This calls for reform in the UN, reform among other International Organizations like the Bretton Woods institutions. How they deal with poor countries needs to be reviewed, and the aim should be to help these countries emerge from the horrible situation we find ourselves in. This forms the crux of my message to the Summit.

QUESTION: And this particular trauma would indicate that there can't be one solution or one set of figures or prescription for everybody. You suggest that perhaps they do not take the human trauma enough into account. What are your priorities?

ANSWER: Well, apart from security which we need to establish, then we must work at reconciling our population. Reconciliation is a priority. We also need to build institutions for good governance. These form the base for any economic development activities. We then have to work at revitalizing agricultural productivity which is the backbone of our economy at present. But we need to go beyond that. We must look at education. As you are aware, we lost a significant proportion of our middle class during the genocide. This has to do with the present acute human resource incapacity. We have to educate our people and develop their capacity. We also have to deal with the scourge of AIDS. It is had a devastating effect on the productive age groups throughout the African continent, but particularly so in Rwanda given our other difficulties, it has a big impact on us. All these put together form the bulk of what we have to deal with in terms of re-vitalizing our economy.

QUESTION: I have actually spoken to some women who tell me that some of the AIDS problems are related to the genocide because some got raped and sexually assaulted. I wasn't aware though that very much like Cambodia, the middle-class were targeted in Rwanda. Can you say more about that? What was the pattern, was it intellectuals and community leaders who were targeted?

ANSWER: I think it was many fold. The middle-class actually got involved in the killing. Some of them are in prison today. Others were specifically targeted. It was a combination of factors.

QUESTION: How many people do you still have in prison now?

ANSWER: The overall number is about one hundred and twenty thousand.

QUESTION: That was where in the past you were also asking for help to get the judicial system moving...? ANSWER: Yes, that is why building institutions is so important to us, and particularly in the area of justice.

QUESTION: Are you satisfied with the way the Tribunal (the UN International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, ICTR) is working in Arusha?

ANSWER: Well, I think they are making progress. They also have certain difficulties which perhaps one can appreciate. But one can also argue that they can do much better if the International Community rendered more assistance to them. But so far, I think they are doing a good job.

QUESTION:In The New York Times some days back, someone wrote a piece arguing that there should be a country for Hutu and a country for Tutsi. He is a Hutu and said that the whole problem was an inability to live together. Now, I know you do not believe that, but do you think it is plausible in any way?

ANSWER: I certainly do not believe that. There hasn't been anything in the past to demonstrate that our people cannot live together. There hasn't even been an effort in the past. So I do not see a solution in that. But I see a solution in better political, social and economic management of the country. That attitude is both pessimistic and defeatist. Nothing in the past has been done to unite the people of Rwanda, so one cannot say that we tried and failed to live together. But what we have so far achieved from our efforts to unite our people demonstrates to us that our people can live together. Tremendous progress has been made, which gives us hope.

QUESTION: Six years after the genocide, are there still many schools that need to be rebuilt, acres of farmland that are still unusable. Can you give us an indication of the scale of problems that the International Community is yet to help you with? Have you done most of the reconstruction yourselves?

ANSWER: We have been doing that, sharing the burden with the International Community. Some progress has been made. Schools have been re-built. New ones have been built. We have had a 50% increase in primary school attendance. We have nearly doubled secondary school attendance. These are increases on the 1990 figures. But a lot more needs to be done. About 70% of children of primary school age actually go to school. We hope to raise that by at least another 10% in the next three years. The target is to reach 100% before 2010. This is achievable if we do not falter along the way, and if the International Community continues to support us as they have done so far.

QUESTION: How can you organize the political process in the future so that you avoid parties forming on ethnic grounds?

ANSWER: We are thinking about that. But we are still in the process of debating these issues. We have, however, already formed a Constitutional Commission. We think that this commission, in gathering views of the population, will enable us to broaden the debate significantly. We shall also look at examples from other countries, how they have managed problems, some of which are similar to our own. We think that we should allow the existence of parties. But they have to exist in a way that is not detrimental to unity and reconciliation of the people of Rwanda.

QUESTION: Do you have a timetable or schedule yet for when you think you might be able to?

ANSWER: In one year and a half to two years' time we should be able to have a comprehensive and clear process for the political trend of our country in place.

QUESTION: And all the while the economic and social developments take place also?

ANSWER: Absolutely. The economic and social developments take place along side the political developments. The reforms should be carried out simultaneously.

QUESTION: The people of Rwanda have a very negative image of the UN because of what happened? Will you be meeting any UN officials during your stay here?

ANSWER: Yes they do. But the UN has to deal with it. We can only keep urging the UN to understand our problems. I will be meeting with UN Secretary-General, Koffi Annan and the Administrator of the UNDP, Mr. Malloch Brown. I hope to be able to put across some of these problems confronting us.

QUESTION:Are there problems on the western side of the country? Are people afraid to live there because of the war?

ANSWER: There is no problem anywhere in the country now. All parts of the country, including the borders, are peaceful.

QUESTION: You do have a programme don't you, to bring people back and reintegrate them into society?

ANSWER: They have actually been coming back over a long period of time. Almost every week, we have people returning from Congo, this apart from the large numbers that came in 1997 as you may remember. We have trickles of people returning every year from different parts of Congo where they had been hiding in the bush. In actual fact, some of the people who were said to have been killed or disappeared are alive and are returning to Rwanda. In 1998 alone, we had almost 30,000 people returning, and in 1999 and part of this year, we have 500 to 1000 returning almost every week.

QUESTION: So the people who returned in the big group in 1997, were they whole families? Is what is left in Congo now mostly soldiers?

ANSWER: Sometimes it is whole families, sometimes half. You find that the returnees sometimes leave part of their families in Congo. Those who remain behind are the young ones, the fighters, maybe their wives also.

QUESTION: Not too long ago you met with Mr. Kabila, and you have known him for some time now. What in your opinion went wrong? People welcomed the fall of Mobutu, but then things started to disintegrate, what was the problem now that you look back at it?

ANSWER: I have to say that I did not know Kabila very well. I only met him in 1996. When the changes in Congo were taking place in 1996, it is true to say that people were tired of Mobutu, so they did not really look too hard at the character and quality of the new person. They were absorbed by the fact that change had to take place, not so much how it was to take place or who was to lead it. This is the situation that gave rise to Kabila. What went wrong is much more complex than meets the eye. I think a lot has to do with the political culture of Congo. Congo has been mismanaged for too long a time. This has not allowed for the emergence of a political class that understands how to manage the country's affairs.

QUESTION: So in effect, certainly in Rwanda and probably in Uganda as well, the political development was more sophisticated than that of Congo. It is a bit like what Suharto did in Indonesia where he robbed a whole generation of political education?

ANSWER: And this has a long-term effect on the overall development of the society.

QUESTION:And I wonder if that also affects the way the opposition operates in Congo?

ANSWER: Yes. It does affect them too.

QUESTION: Do you have much contact since your meeting with Kabila?

ANSWER: Well, we met in Eldoret, and after that we met during the summit in Lusaka recently. In as far as dealing with our problems in Congo, we have kept the channels of communication open to see what contribution he can make to the overall framework that has been established to bring about peace in Congo and the region.

QUESTION: Doesn't he see though that the longer he prolongs this, the people who are getting hurt the most are his own people?

ANSWER: Well, that is if he understands it that way. I think it depends whether he his looking at the common interests of the Congolese people or whether he is looking at his own interests.

QUESTION: And you have denied that you have any geographical or territorial interests, in other words you have denied that you want to take a piece of the Congo ?

ANSWER: Well, the answer we give to that allegation is that the world should call our bluff. Let them solve our problem then see what happens. If we do stay in Congo after that, then they will be justified in saying we had other designs. But the real problem remains. Nobody can say that the ex-FAR and Interahamwe, who are based in Congo and are supported by the Congolese government, do not pose a serious threat to us.

QUESTION: Has there ever been a precedent for this. If the UN had to decide what to do, would it be to disarm and demobilize the militias? It will even be difficult to identify them seeing that they are all mixed in with Kabila's troops?

ANSWER: Surely, the UN has enough resources, expertise and experience acquired from other situations to come up with a proposal. We are ready to receive and reintegrate all Rwandese back home. With Kabila and his allies, I believe we can work together to find a way to deal with this problem. There are many ways to do it. One is for us to say, let us make sure that these people are isolated and do not get support from any government. That in itself would be a big step. Then we can move further and identify where they are, put them in camps, repatriate them to Rwanda or take them elsewhere. That is another step. I don't see why the UN and International Community can fail to do that.

QUESTION: Well this fits into this new peacekeeping report which says what you need is a policy planning staff within the UN. You need people to look at problems before they blow up in your face. And this is exactly the kind of problem, is it not, that a group of brains can examine and present proposals. Has the UN not done that in Congo?

ANSWER: No they haven't done that. They actually come to us and ask what we think they should do. We tell them, but they keep returning with the same question. There are a lot of resources spent on dealing with the humanitarian crises that continue to emerge as a result of mismanagement of these processes. They spend so much, they are very quick to respond to humanitarian crises, but there are many failures in preventing the crises from happening in the first place.

QUESTION:: Another thing is that Rwanda and Uganda have been accused of taking natural resources, diamonds and timber from Congo. Do have any problem with the UN doing a study on natural resources in Congo?

ANSWER: We have no problem with that.

QUESTION: Because basically you are saying that Rwanda is not getting rich?

ANSWER: No. And they will find that the rich countries that are making these allegations are the ones looting the resources of Congo.

QUESTION: : And you have also denied that there is any trading in Angolan diamonds going on in Kigali?

ANSWER: The government of Rwanda has not been involved in any diamond trading.

QUESTION:You must be asked so much about all the troubles in Rwanda, but I was there recently, and I had also been there in 1996. I thought the city looked wonderful with all the changes that have been made. How are these developments affecting peoples' psychology? Are they feeling better about life?

ANSWER: Certainly. People are feeling a lot better. There is a lot of progress. People are at peace with themselves, they are working very hard. You can see a lot of construction going on, farming and other developments. There is a positive, up-beat mood in the country, and we are all encouraged by it.

© The Government of Rwanda.