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Paul KAGAME: My side of the story

In an exclusive interview granted to West Africa magazine Editor, Adama Gaye, Paul KAGAME, the Rwandan President who was in London this week, spoke on a range of burning issues.

WA : Often when your name is mentioned it is associated with evil. Are you a devil or an angel ?

PK : Those who created the negative impression should be the ones to explain it. There is nothing that I have done that should have created it. I think the opposite should be the case.

WA : Who is Paul KAGAME ?

PK : Well, currently, he is the President of the Republic of Rwanda. He is a freedom fighter who fought hard to liberate his country and restore the rights of many Rwandans, both those who were inside the country long ago and those who were refugees in the neighbouring countries and beyond.

WA : You have acted behind the scenes until your recent move to your current position of President. Why this move now ?

PK : I have never been behind the scenes. I was the Vice President and I held the portfolio of Minister of Defence. If anything, that is being at the forefront.

WA : Why have you accepted to be President now ?

PK : Circumstances keep changing. There is always dynamism as things happen in different situations. This dynamic situation created that I became the President. I look at that as a matter of carrying a heavy responsibility for my country. I was carrying a responsibility anyway before. This time, it adds more responsibility and I am not a person who runs away from challenges that are created by having to do more for my country.

WA : What do you say to those who believe that the removal of the Hutu President Pasteur BIZIMUNGU means further marginalisation of the Hutus?

PK : It is not the truth. Unless they mean that since, initially there was a Hutu President, the Tutsis were sidelined. The issue is about being Rwandese, not being a Hutu or a Tutsi. In Rwanda there are three ethnic groups : the Batwa, the Bahutu and the Batutsi. They should all have equal rights. We don't treat any of those as secondary citizens.

WA : As President of Rwanda what is your core goal, ambition and vision for the country?

PK : We have to start rebuilding the country. We have to unite the people. We have also to reconstruct the country because it has been devastated by the events that took place in 1994 and the mismanagement that was prevailing in the political affairs years before that. We have to offer Rwandans equal rights and make sure that Rwanda contributes to the development of Africa.

WA : These are lofty goals but how could you achieve them if the 1994 genocide has not been healed ?

PK : Healing takes a process. It's not an event. In terms of reconciliation, we have set up commissions to look into how it can be carried out. We are looking at how justice relating to the 1994 events has been carried out so far. We have made progress in fighting poverty. You can't address reconciliation or political issues without addressing the actual things that affect our people. There are policies and programmes that will allow us move forward.

WA : Your government wants justice done. How is the situation moving on that front ?

PK : Justice has to be done. So reconciliation has got to take place. So democratisation has also to take place. It's a combination of all sorts of efforts. We have been able to put in place infrastructures to deal with the justice challenges that we face. It took a long time to rebuild the courts, to train lawyers, prosecutors and others. We have also been able to get the support from the international community. It has been a daunting task but I think in six years we have made quite remarkable progress.

WA : Do you include the United Nations Tribunal for Rwanda as part of what you call a remarkable progress ?

PK : Yes. We have at present a good cooperation between our Justice administration and the United Nations Tribunal for Rwanda.

WA : Are you implying that this tribunal is no longer slow in the way it delivers justice as your govenment used to say ?

PK : We can still talk of some weaknesses...

WA : What are they ?

PK : They have been very slow in handling cases. In other cases there had been mishandling of justice. But I think we have had good interactions. We raised our concerns. They have told us about the difficulties they have told us about the difficulties they are confronted with to get the suspects or the support of ther governments. On the basis of positive criticisms, we have been able to move forward.

WA: Now, with hindsight, could you tell how all this crisis in Rwanda started ?

PK : Some link it with the downing in April 1994 of the plane of the late Rwandese President, Juvenal Habyarimana. First of all, the downing of Habyarimana's plane couldn't have created a genocide. There had been before leaders who have died in different circumstances and that didn't lead to extermination of big sections of people. For exemple, in our case, during our struggle, we lost Fred Rwigyema, President of our Movement, the Rwandese Patriotic Front (RPF) who was killed by Habyarimana's forces. But the RPF didn't go on rampage to kill the population because their leader had died. So, it is very nonsensical that whatever could have led to the death of Habyarimana had justification for the extermination of about one million people.

WA : You have not yet told me who downed his plane ?

PK : It is a matter that really the United Nations should have come out to tell the world about, since they are the ones in charge of that situation. The other people who could have told the world what happened were the French forces or their government. When it happened they took control of the scene. Those who were in power in Rwanda at the time could also be a good source. The areas where it happened were under their control.

WA : In short, your movement is not involved in the downing of Habyarimana's plane ?

PK : Not at all !

WA : Tells us now what are the causes of the Rwandan crisis?

PK : Well, the genocide has a long history, if you know a bit of what happened in 1959 alone. There was a civil strife which led to many refugees moving out of the country in hundreds of thousands and tens of thousands of people being killed. More or less, genocide started around that time. There had been other genocides in 1963, 1967, 1973 and 1993 while we were negotiating a peace agreement in Arusha (people living in the north west of the country were exterminated by the then government forces). So you can see that genocide is not just a result of the downing of Habyarimana's plane. It has been taking place for quite a long period. A section of our population has always been targeted by the government and its forces. Huge sections of the population were wiped out from different parts of our country. This had been going on over thirty years. The history of that has a lot to do with the make up of our society. There were divisions in our society with three ethnic groups. But despite the fact that we were one people sharing a lot of things together, with one culture, the colonialists and the politicians who took over from them at independence tried to build on the artificial or superficial division in our society to entrench themselves. That led to the tragic situation of 1994. That has brought refugees in the diaspora who have been in exile for over 30 years in various parts of the world to fight for their rights, i.e.to return to their country. But the then government refused and said the country was too small to accommodate them. This refusal sparked off the war when other avenues had failed to have the problem resolved.

WA : Given the rebellion of some Hutus, do you think that your country has overcome the genocide syndrome ?

PK : Well, we have to ensure that it's over and that all Rwandese have equal opportunities and rights. We have to encourage that kind of politics. We have to democratise our society on that basis. As for the rebellion, it is not a serious one. Let me give you an example to clarify the situation : we have had over two million refugees following the events of 1994. They were scattered in the Democratic Republic of Congo, in Burundi, in Tanzania. In 1996 and 1997, we made sure that all these refugees returned and got settled in the country. We have only some remnants who got involved in 1994 genocide who are still loitering in the Democratic Republic of Congo and in some areas. They are the ones who still have a genocide ideology. But the rest of the refugees are back in the country. The remaining people cannot even claim they are fighting for the rights of Hutus. And their rebellion doesn's make sense. It cannot succeed.

WA : How can you democratise a society that is divided along strict ethnic lines ? Don't you run the risk of having an ethnocracy, not a democracy ?

PK : That is a danger and we consider it as such. In our democratisation process, we are being very careful. We have allowed the debate to take place for people to examine what went wrong with our history and what divided our society. So the conclusion generally being made today is that Rwandese should have a democracy but they should associate along national, political and rational issues rather than looking at themselves as belonging to an ethnic group. I think this is taking root. It is very rewarding for example that during the elections we had last year people elected their leaders not along ethnic lines. You had Hutus being elected by both Tutsis and Hutus and a mix of leaders coming up one the basis of merit. I believe this is a sign that we are succeeding in our process.

WA : When you came to power in the 1990's along with other ''young'' leaders, like Uganda's Museveni, Congo's Kabila and Eritrea's Afewerki, people said this new leadership would promote an African Renaissance. Now, most of these leaders, including yourself, are involved in conflicts. Is this not a failure?

PK : I think there are two aspects to it. One is success and the other one is failure. On a positive note, if you look at different countries, like Eritrea, Ethiopia, Uganda or Rwanda, there have been some good processes in terms of economic reforms. And in other countries there have been democratic reforms and political reforms taking place. There has been hope in terms of improvement in the living standards of the people of Africa. People should not ignore that or rubbish it because of other developments, which are indeed negative but which should and can be worked on to be resolved. The conflicts in the Horn between Eritrea and Ethiopia can also be resolved. It should not totally nullify the progress that has been made, both in Eritrea and Ethiopia. I think progress has been made but the negative tends to destroy the good things that have been achieved.

WA : Why did you fight with Kabila ?

PK : It's a long history. One has to look at it in terms of how Kabila came to power. That happened as a result of many things. One is that there was a seaech for security and peace for our country. At that time we had genocidal forces operating in Zaire, then under Mobutu, and being supported by Mobutu. Once the international community failed in its obligations to make sure that Rwanda did not continue to be destabilised by those who were in refugee camps in the Congo, Rwanda had to take the responsibility to create peace and security for its own citizens. That's what resulted in our forces crossing the border in 1996 and dismantling the camps in the Congo. Over one million of our people were returned home, and then the fighting that surrounded all that continued but also this time generated the rebellion against Mobutu, who was eventually overthrown, and that is how Kabila eventually came to power. Later on it was very unfortunate that, for all sorts of complex reasons which are very difficult to understand, Kabila, or his officials, became involved in almost the same things that Mobutu was involved in at the time when he was causing us problems. And again, in search of peace for us, we mentioned to Kabila that clearly he was the result of a process in which peace and security in the Congo was at issue. At the same time, we told him he could not be the same person causing us similar problems. If that didn't stop, then we might have a repeat of what we had in 1996 and in which Mobutu saw his exit, but the main target was to resolve that security problem. And that's how it happened. So what has been happenening in the DRC since 1998 is happening for the same reasons in Zaire in 1996.

WA : You met Kabila recently, have the problems been resolved ?

PK : They haven't been sorted out fully but I think we had the opportunity to discuss the details of what happened and discuss also the need to have peace. Peace in Rwanda, peace in the Congo and peace in the region. I think the meeting might have helped to push forward the peace agreement which we already have in place, which was brokered in Lusaka.

WA : If your security concerns are addressed, are you likely to stop backing the rebellion against Kabila ?

PK : There is no question that our only interest in that situation in the DRC is about security. If that is addressed we can only encourage the Congolese to be together. They have their own internal problems and should try to find a solution for their internal problems.

WA : Why are you also having problems with Uganda's Museveni ? People do not understand...

PK : I cannot blame them if they cannot understand. Even some of us who are directly involved don't really fully understand it. It's a very difficult situation we find ourselves conflicting in different ways. All I can say is that we are trying to look into it and look at the causes and try to find a solution. But it is quite difficult to understand.

WA : What is the cause of this problem ?

PK : I think the problem is that maybe Rwanda needs to be left to handle its own affairs. We are not interested in having other people run our affairs, be it in Rwanda, or in our presence in the Congo. We would rather deal with our internal affairs, we have the right and the will and the capacity to do that.

WA : Are you suggesting that perhaps Museveni is meddling in your country's affairs ?

PK : Well, that could be part of the problem.

WA : What role does the UN and the OAU play in all this ? Do you see them as partners in fixing the problems ?

PK : I think that part of the problem we can fix ourselves. Between the Rwandans and the Ugandans we are able to understand one another and give respect to one another. We can fix it. I don't think it is an issue where a third party would be extremely useful. But some people have been very useful especially when the fighting developed, like in Kisangani. The UN has been useful. But overall, I think the two countries can sit down and discuss this issue and bring it to an end.

WA : Do you think the UN peacekeeping group that is to be set up for the DRC can resolve the Congolese problem ?

PK : It cannot fix it alone. It can help. The UN peacekeepers' presence is certainly very useful. They can tell the world who is doing what. In terms of monitoring what is going on, they would be very useful.

WA : When he visited your country three years ago, Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General was not well received.Has your relationship with him improved?

PK : Of late, it has changed and there has been progress. At that time, I think what happened was understandable. People were really very bitter about the failures of the UN and the lack of the UN's recognition of their failure. I think that since his visit a lot of other things have been taking place. Things have improved.

© The Government of Rwanda.