"Seek broad, long-term solutions," Kagame urges Congolese On 13th April 2002, President Kagame spoke to Belgian Journalist Marc Hoogsteyns about a wide range of issues including the challenges facing the Government, the Genocide, justice, the ICTR, opposition groups outside Rwanda and the DRC. Excerpts below: *Marc Hoogsteyns: Mr. President, eight years since the Genocide, what problems are you facing in rebuilding Rwanda?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* A lot of our problems revolve around a lack of resources, both financial and human resources. This, naturally, creates other difficulties for us. However, we have put in place correct policies, and we understand what we must do to correct the wrongs of the past. What we can do, we are doing or have done. But given the resources at our disposal, there are some programmes or initiatives we cannot carry out on our own without external support. We are involved in increasing the number of schools and healthcare, supporting orphans and widows of the Genocide, the problem of HIV/AIDS and other diseases. Our situation of poverty obviously compounds these problems. *Marc Hoogsteyns: What measures are you taking to reduce dependency on foreign aid?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* We aim to reduce our dependence in the long-term. We must look at reconstruction and rehabilitation of various sectors of the economy first. We must also improve the infrastructure. Based on the policies we have put in place with respect to the economy, social and political issues, we must mobilise our people around these common goals. We are also experiencing difficulties based on the low levels of skills among our people. We have trained many people and continue to do so. New institutions have been established to meet these training challenges. We are encouraging our people in the rural areas to move away from a subsistence economy. We must increase productivity, create industries, increase capacities and change attitudes. The challenge is to find the resources that are required to develop in all these areas. It will take quite sometime, but we are on the way to achieving that. Marc Hoogsteyns: A couple of days ago, Rwanda commemorated the 8th Anniversary of the Genocide. Some of the organisers are in jail in Rwanda, Arusha and elsewhere. Others like Seraphin Rwabukumba are living freely in Belgium. What is your reaction to that? *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* My reaction is that perhaps the magnitude of the tragedy that befell this country during the 1994 Genocide has not been well appreciated by the international community. Some few steps have been made to bring those who are responsible for the Genocide to justice. But a lot more remains to be done. Some suspects have been able to live at large despite their very serious involvement in the Genocide, even at the level of the masterminds. Seraphin Rwabukumba is a case in point. Complaints have been raised about him by the Rwanda Government, by NGO's and civil society. The Belgian authorities and ICTR are fully aware of this and of the serious allegations against him. How he manages to remain at large in comfort raises a lot of questions. The impression is that some of those who were responsible for the Genocide are receiving cover or protection from some quarters that have power or authority of some kind. There are other suspects in different parts of the world, in France, Italy and elsewhere. We hope that over time justice will catch up with these people. But the sooner these people are brought to justice, the better for everyone. *Marc Hoogsteyns:What about the Gacaca trials? We talked to prisoners in a jail in Kigali a couple of days ago. They appeared to be quite happy that the Gacaca trials would be starting soon.* Gacaca has been put in place because we lacked a better solution to this problem of bringing the thousands of Genocide suspects to justice. It will allow us to bring some suspects to justice, to have those who were falsely implicated to be freed, and also to allow for those with much lesser charges to be freed. This will be a way of rebuilding the society, of reconciling people and encouraging forgiveness. We are currently in the process of building the Gacaca infrastructure. Even if there might be concerns as to how perfect Gacaca can be or will be I believe it is the best alternative in the circumstances. Judges are being trained, people are being mobilised and sensitised about what underlies the process of Gacaca, the benefits of Gacaca in the areas of reconciliation, justice and rebuilding the country. Marc Hoogsteyns: Carla del Ponte was quoted by The Guardian as saying that some RPA officers also committed crimes against humanity during the Genocide in 1994, and should therefore also be brought to justice. What is your reaction on that? *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* There has to be a clear separation of issues here. I am sure that Carla del Ponte and the ICTR are not suggesting that the RPA was involved in the Genocide. This issue is clear. The Genocide was carried out by the Government of the day, the Government forces and the militia. What ICTR is saying is that during the process of fighting, some members of RPA committed some crimes. I hope that Carla del Ponte and others will appreciate that RPA, during the course of the struggle, was very serious in punishing those who committed crimes. This is on record. Sometimes we were actually criticised by international organisations for being 'too harsh', as they described it, when punishing those who committed crimes. We had field courts marshal that tried people for all sorts of crimes. They were very serious in investigations and carrying out sentences, to the extent that some of our soldiers were found guilty of carrying out serious crimes and were executed. That should demonstrate that we did not tolerate crimes committed by any of our members. Very clearly, very distinctly, you never had cases on the other side (ex-FAR and Interahamwe) of people being punished for committing crimes. I think it would be an extremely big mistake for anybody to insinuate any balance in the crimes. Our forces were fighting to stop the Genocidal forces from killing innocent people. And any of our people who committed any crimes were punished. *Marc Hoogsteyns:Is there a revisionist attitude?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* There has been for a long time. There are people who are trying to deny that there was Genocide in Rwanda. There are also those who, while admitting there was Genocide, say there was counter-Genocide and everyone is guilty. There was an attempt to cover up what happened by trying to broaden the involvement and create the impression equal guilt. This revisionist attitude has been going on for quite some time. You may recall that even during the Genocide, there are many people who were saying that it wasn't a Genocide, merely Hutu and Tutsi killing each other. This is both simplistic and nonsensical. Marc Hoogsteyns: In your speech at Nyakibanda, Butare at the Genocide commemoration, you warned certain people not to go too far. What exactly did you mean by that? Who were you pointing the finger at? *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* The people I was talking about know themselves. We have given them time to think about what they are doing. We have given them warnings. Central among the causes of the Genocide is the sectarianism that had been practised here for many years. This is what led to the Genocide. In our new situation, we have been saying politics, pluralism, freedom of expression will all be respected. But we have also said that this should not include sectarianism. One cannot practice politics that incites one section of the population against another. This will only result in another Genocide, which is what happened in the past. Over time, individuals like former president Pasteur Bizimungu, his colleague Charles Ntakirutinka and others have emerged, and we have said to them publicly, you cannot take us back to the history that caused the Genocide. If you want to participate in politics, you can do so, but there should be standards by which to do so. It cannot be any kind of politics, including the type of politics that would bring chaos to the country or return us to another situation of Genocide. Therefore, our duty today is to ensure that this kind of politics is not practised here again, otherwise we shall not have learnt from our bad history, which would be tragic. I think there are a number of confused people, mainly from western countries, who talk about democracy, pluralism and elections, irrespective of how that is to be achieved or carried out and the consequences they could have on the country depending on the politics that is being preached. Some of the individuals have been pampered and feel they can now start preaching the very politics which they were preaching against when they were in Government. I was deliberate in what I said at Nyakibanda when we were commemorating the Genocide, and it was important that I said it on that day because the Genocide resulted from the mismanagement of our nation's politics. If you have people promoting this kind of politics today, we can very easily slide back into the same situation. *Marc Hoogsteyns: The RDR has its headquarters in the Netherlands. What would be your message to the Dutch government about these people?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* I think that the RDR and other groups based in Holland and other places have no reason, no point in being outside Rwanda and undermining our efforts to rebuild the country. We have, time and again, urged them to return to Rwanda and be part of the process to develop the country. I think there are numerous reasons why they are where they are. One of the reasons is that some of them have been accused of serious involvement in the Genocide and fear to face the law, to be held accountable for their crimes, if they return to Rwanda. Secondly, I think that perhaps they find the life of a refugee in Europe, where they are housed and looked after, easier, perhaps more comfortable, than living in Rwanda. Their children are put in school at no expense to them, they are assured of food everyday, and they don't have to work for that. That is the situation that tempts them to remain there. At the same time, the Government of the Netherlands is involved in the reconstruction effort in Rwanda, for which we are very grateful. So on the one hand, the Dutch Government is providing valuable assistance for the development of the country, but on the other hand, there are people based there, who are also benefiting from their assistance, but are destructive in terms of the progress we are trying to achieve inside Rwanda. That balance is not very wise. The situation should not be allowed to exist. *Marc Hoogsteyns: I was told by the Ministry of Justice that a number of these people have criminal records relating to the Genocide in Rwanda.* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* There have been a number people, Government Ministers, Members of Parliament, NGO's that have visited the Netherlands and spoken to their counterparts about this and have explained that situation. It is really not necessary for these people to live in the Netherlands and to be destructive as far as Rwanda is concerned. What Rwanda needs is reconstruction, concerted efforts from all Rwandans, wherever they are, to develop their country. Secondly, some of them are actually criminals who need to be brought to justice. I think it is up to the Government of the Netherlands to understand this and take necessary measures to deal with that situation. Marc Hoogsteyns: There are a number of groups opposed to your Government that are active outside Rwanda, like ARENA, the royalist party and so on. What is your message to them, because they are criticising your Government quite openly? *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* I believe that people are free to criticise what we are doing. Such people will always exist in society, even those who do not have an argument or point to make. There will be those who are ignorant about what is happening, but still want to raise their voices and be heard. There are some who are misguided for one reason or another. What I consider to be the most important point is the growing strength of what we are building here in Rwanda. That, for me, is the most important issue. When you talk of economic growth, the reconstruction process, reconciliation, democratisation, the human rights situation, the overall political governance of the country, security, in all these areas we have made tremendous progress and built a very firm foundation. The majority of people in Rwanda are engaged in these processes and are happy. There is a minority of misguided or disgruntled people who, from outside the country criticise what we are doing. But I believe that what we are doing should be tested here, at the grassroots, among the ordinary people of Rwanda. That is where you see the progress we have made, where people live in peace and are engaged in production, working with their elected local governments to improve the quality of their lives. We will continue to extend a hand, an olive branch, to these groups based outside the country. It is up to them to take advantage of that. In the meantime, we shall continue to concentrate on the issues that matter for the people here in Rwanda. *Marc Hoogsteyns: Some of these opposition groups are now talking with the Interahamwe. Some of them have also visited Kabila in Kinshasa. What is your comment about that?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* Their actions help us explain our point. These groups that are making so much noise outside the country really have nothing good to offer the country. How else can you explain the actions of some of them that started here in 1994, pretending that they are part of the reconstruction process, part of the better situation we are trying to create, very critical of the Genocide. When these same people become disgruntled they leave the country and begin to associate with the same Genocidaire they criticised and pretended to be working against? This demonstrates the kind of people they are. They expose their unprincipled politics by their actions. For someone like Valens Kajeguhakwa, he left the country because he was involved in financial crimes in a bank, which he seemed to head, called BACAR. When he was being pursued by the justice institutions, he fled to the US and then immediately turns against the Government, and then goes to Kinshasa to establish contact with Genocidaire, the same people he once claimed to be opposed to. That demonstrates what kind of people they are, and that is what people in Rwanda take them to be. They are simply criminals like all the others we have to fight against. There is another called Deo Mushayidi, a journalist who also lived here, but after stealing money from his colleagues when he leading their club, he too fled and joined these groups. There is Deo Kagiraneza who was a Prefet and at one time he was in parliament, criticising former governments and what they did, fighting against Interahamwe, then he turns around and wants to join them. We really don't have to do much to expose them. They expose themselves by their actions. *Marc Hoogsteyns: What do you think about what is happening in the Inter-Congolese Dialogue?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* To the Congolese people, and to members of the international community who seem to very interested in what is going on to the extent of sometimes trying to determine the outcomes, my advice is simple. They should use the Inter-Congolese Dialogue to address the real issues affecting their country. They should be broad and long-term in their thinking. They should look at all the components of the Congo situation. They should remember that Congo has a long history of problems. It is not something that started just yesterday. They should not focus on an individual as a solution. Some people are trying to steer the dialogue in the direction of talking about just one individual. This is oversimplification. They should not zero all Congolese problems and solutions on this issue alone. They should be more broad and bring all parties together, hear their views and urge them to reach a solution, if not by consensus, at least by majority. They should agree on the best way forward, the structures to be put in place for the transition. I saw on the News that some European Foreign Ministers said they were happy because Bamba's MLC agreed to support Kabila as President. But that is not the issue. The issue is not Kabila being president. The issue is Kabila and other groups. How do you bring them together? How do you get them all to agree to work together in a transitional government, which will lead to elections where ordinary Congolese will choose their leaders? How do you bring them to reunite their country as a viable state, which it has not been for a long time? These are the real issues people should be addressing, but I fear that they are missing the point. *Marc Hoogsteyns: What do you think personally of Joseph Kabila?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* I have no personal views about him. However, it is up to him to prove himself by how he works with others to rebuild that country that has needed leadership for a long time. Congo has suffered, its people have suffered for many years. They suffered before Mobutu, during the Mobutu years and afterwards. Of course sometimes, some very simplistic minds have tried to reduce the problems of Congo to just yesterday's situation. They say that people have died in the millions, because Rwanda is fighting in Congo, because of the armed opposition groups. People in Congo have died and continue to die because of their leaders. Their leaders have created a situation in which so many of them have lost their lives to disease, lawlessness or war. That is the fact of the matter, whether they like it or not. *Marc Hoogsteyns: So why are Rwandan troops in the Congo?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* It's very simple. The problem dates back to 1994. We had these Genocidaire fleeing into Congo. They are still there. They were helped by Mobutu, then later by Laurent Kabila, and now by Joseph Kabila. We are saying that this situation should not be allowed to happen. As it is happening, we will deal with it by attacking the problem at the source. If the international community can take over this problem and resolve it, we will have no further reason to be in the Congo. But for as long as it is not dealt with and you have the Genocidaire operating there supported by the DRC Government and its allies, then our troops will remain there. We will not allow them to cause another genocide in Rwanda. That is the simple fact of the matter. *Marc Hoogsteyns: Rwanda is accused of looting Congo, particularly the Coltan trade. They say that Coltan is the real reason why Rwanda is in the Congo. What is your reaction to that?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* No. That is nonsense. This story of Coltan came very recently, just a couple of years ago. Our troops first went to Congo to deal with the security problems in 1996. Coltan only came up in 1999. So that does not make sense. Secondly, this Coltan being talked about is available all over Rwanda. In fact the experts say that the Coltan in Rwanda is of the highest grade. There are many mines across Rwanda, in almost all provinces, in Gitarama, in Kibungo, in Ruhengeri, in Cyangugu, there is Coltan and it is of the best quality. So why don't people stick to the truth, the facts? These facts can be demonstrated. There is also Coltan in Congo, and the Congolese are involved in mining there. Whether they are involved with Rwandese businessmen, I do not know, and I cannot stop them from working with their counterparts in Congo. This kind of trade between the two countries has been there for decades, and it doesn't makes sense to stop it. *Marc Hoogsteyns: How do you see the future for Rwanda?* *PRESIDENT KAGAME:* My opinion is that the future is bright. There is a lot of hope for the future. Based on seeing the complex problems we have gone through, the progress we have been able to make, the manner in which the people have embraced the political programmes and responded to the need to get together to overcome the many challenges of the past, to work hard and focus on what needs to be done. So looking at the progress made so far, I have no doubt that Rwanda is on the move to stability and development. The problems are still there. I am not saying that Rwanda is a paradise. But we are working at overcoming these problems, and the progress is impressive.
© The Government of Rwanda.