"We want to give a chance to other peace efforts," says KAGAME

At the end of September, the President of the Republic of Rwanda, H.E. Paul Kagame spoke to Jeune Afrique's François Soudan about the Pretoria peace agreement and the prospects for peace in the Democratic Republic of Congo and the wider Great Lakes region of central Africa.

NOTE: This interview took place one week before the complete withdrawal of Rwandan troops from the DRC on October 5th 2002.

Excepts below:

Jeune Afrique: What can you say to the international community to demonstrate your sincerity about withdrawal from the DRC?

President KAGAME: Well, we have been sincere, right from the beginning about what we have been doing for our country. We have always been very clear about the reasons for which we have been in the Congo, namely our security concerns that date back to the tragic events of 1994.

We also believe that the time has come to take some kind of initiative to breathe into the process some life, to create a forward movement for peace in the Congo as well as the whole region.

This time around we agreed on two key issues with the Kinshasa government. These are not the only issues, but as far as we were concerned, these two issues are of paramount importance. The issues are withdrawal of our forces from the Congo on the one hand, and on the other hand, giving serious attention and addressing the problems of ex-FAR and Interahamwe and stopping the support that enables them to continue to constitute themselves into a force that is a menace to our country and national security.

We were serious when we made this undertaking to withdraw our forces from the DRC. We have started withdrawing our troops and we intend to take this to its conclusion until the last Rwandan soldier has returned home. We will be doing this in the coming days, maybe a month. If it were logistically possible to withdraw all our troops in one day, we would have done so. The amount of time this process might take will be dictated by the logistical capacity.

We would now like to give a chance to other efforts to achieve peace in this region, and hopefully in the end to be vindicated.

Jeune Afrique: I asked that question because a similar deal was agreed in Lusaka some years ago, but that failed.

President KAGAME: Yes, but it was not Rwanda that did not respect the Lusaka agreement. If you remember, Rwanda took some initiatives hoping to encourage other signatories to implement their obligations under the agreement. For example, we took the initiative to withdraw our troops 200 kilometers from the front lines. However, this initiative was not reciprocated by others parties.

A number of things failed us at the time. Firstly, the late DRC President Laurent Kabila did not seem to be serious about the peace agreement. Secondly, there was still a lot of chaos and fighting taking place in the Congo, with the Mai Mai, ex-FAR/Interahamwe and others. So a number of parties were still weighing their options thinking that perhaps they would sooner or later gain an advantage over other parties. I guess that was one of the reasons for failure.

Jeune Afrique: But one of the problems is that there is a very big gap between the number of Interahamwe you claim are in the DRC and the number the Kinshasa government claim. The difference is one to ten.

President KAGAME: For me the numbers have never been so much the issue. Their number is a smaller issue, not the most important issue. The most important issues are, firstly, what they represent, they are forces that committed Genocide and whether it is one person or one hundred, the important issue is what they represent. The second important issue is how they interact with other forces, countries or groups, in order to get the capacity to continue to cause problems for us. These are the key issues.

Jeune Afrique: Did all 40,000 ex-FAR/Interhamwe in Congo participate in the Genocide.

President KAGAME: There is need to understand that once you do not pin-point the actual people responsible, then there is a tendency for the culpability of a few to cover many. That is why we have said that the leaders in Kinshasa and elsewhere should be apprehended. If we had apprehended these leaders, and the rank and file did not get support from any quarters, then they would have ceased to be a problem for us. The failure to deal with the leaders, the authors of the genocide, who are now leading the rest into this situation, is what is now causing problems for us.

On our part, it is very clear that we do not blame everybody for genocide. That is why people have been returning home from the DRC and we have been re-integrating them into society. Between 1998 - 2001, we repatriated about 70,000 from different parts of the Congo. They were received and resettled. So we do make a distinction.

Jeune Afrique: So those among them who want to return on a voluntary basis are welcome...

President KAGAME: Yes. They are welcome. I have given you the example of 70,000 returning between 1998 - 2001. Also in 1997 we received over 1.5 million people and resettled them.

Jeune Afrique: If aggression and insecurity continues along your border, do exclude the possibility of sending your troops back to the DRC?

President KAGAME: I don't want to speculate about what may or may not happen in a few months or years to come. The issue is that we are looking forward to resolving the problem and ensuring there are no security threats against our country. The bottom line is that we cannot accept insecurity in our country. I would not want to speculate beyond that.

Jeune Afrique: Don't you think that some of the militias might go to Burundi to create bases there?

President KAGAME: That is very possible. And I warned the (United Nations) Security Council. I brought it to their attention. I thought that it would have been disingenuous of me to simply talk about our withdrawal from Congo without bringing to their attention the likely consequences of our withdrawal. One would be very happy if it didn't happen, but should prepare in case it does happen. The security situation might get worse with the likely vacuum that might develop once we have withdrawn entirely from Congo.

Jeune Afrique: Do you have confidence in the capacity of President Kabila to respect his part of the deal?

President KAGAME: I wouldn't want to speculate about President Kabila's capacities or lack of them. But it is in order that President Kabila respects his side of the commitment. If he has any problem then he should discuss it with whomever he thinks it important to do so and ask for help.

Jeune Afrique: What do you say to those who say that you are grossly exaggerating the number ex-FAR and Interahamwe militiamen, and you are even collaborating with them to maintain an excuse for occupying the DRC?

President KAGAME: That is simply cynical and untrue. Those who are saying this are just being cynical. We have no reason to exaggerate anything. We have no reason to work with criminals of that nature, if anything we have been fighting them for many years now. So those who are saying this are really being cynical. You actually find that those making these claims also turn around and accept that these people exist and are responsible for the genocide. So they should be held to account for the discrepancies in their presentations.

Jeune Afrique: But they ask why in four years your army, which is very good, has not managed to eliminate them?

President KAGAME: They are ignorant of the situation. We have managed to deal with the security problem. Here in Rwanda we have no insecurity at all. By containing them (ex-FAR and Interahamwe) in the DRC, we have partly resolved the problem. If we hadn't done that there would be trouble here. There is a big difference between the security situation here in 1997 and 1998 and what is happening today. There is not even a square kilometre of this country that has a problem of security today. This is because of our efforts in the Congo.

Secondly, our efforts brought about the peace agreements, Lusaka and others that followed. These were a result of our efforts in dealing with ex-FAR/Interahamwe. So we have dealt with a large part of the problem.

One should also remember that there was cease-fire after the peace agreement was signed. This meant that we were confined to one part of the country and the militias were able to continue to organise and receive support in another part, which we did not control.

Despite that, in fighting them, containing them effectively and ensuring that there was security in Rwanda, we succeeded 100%.

Jeune Afrique: There are ex-FAR/Interahamwe in other countries as well, like Congo-Brazzaville. What do you say to the authorities there about them?

President KAGAME: We have said to them what we have said to the whole world. These people are a problem, they are associated with the genocide and they need to be demobilised and repatriated. Those responsible for the genocide should face justice, either with the ICTR or with our national justice system.

For the others who wish to settle in the Congo, they should not constitute a problem for Rwanda. I hope they do not constitute a problem for the host countries either.

Jeune Afrique: Have you spoken to President Sassou Nguesso about this?

President KAGAME: Yes, many times. He is aware of our concerns, and we have left it to him to decide how to manage the situation.

ENDS.