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Kagame speaks on Rwanda's history, the Government's political programme and regional issues

On 27th February 2002, President Kagame granted an interview to the Kenya-based East African Standard newspaper covering a wide range of issues including the Government's political programme, the new national symbols, the effect the Genocide has had on Rwanda, the conflict in the DRC, and Rwanda's regional policy.
Proceedings were as follows:

Question: Can you give us a background of the history of Rwanda, and the history of the problems that culminated in the Genocide in 1994?


PRESIDENT KAGAME:
The history of Rwanda is really quite long, and different events and happenings in this history led to the Genocide in 1994. In fact, the Genocide itself tells you a lot about the history of Rwanda. Otherwise, how can one explain such widespread killing right across the country in three months? The Genocide itself tells you about the magnitude of the problems we face.
Rwanda has been a nation state for centuries. Initially the country was ruled under a feudal system until 1959 when there was what some people called a 'revolution', but it was actually not the case. The Belgian colonialists played a significant role in the events, playing one section of the community off against the other. They started by embracing the feudal system then later when it did not serve them well they turned against it, telling a section of the community that they should rebel against it because it was oppressive. It was the typical divide and rule politics of the colonial era.
The ethnic divide that was created and heightened by the colonialists, and later on by the political elite that took over after independence, later on led up to the Genocide. So, from a historical perspective, the colonialists had a hand in creating a situation that led up to the Genocide, as did that post-colonial Rwandan political elite. The post-colonial leadership did not do anything to change the situation, instead preferring to entrench the divide for their political ends.
The make-up of our society did not help things either. The Rwandan society was acutely hierarchical. The post-colonial leaders adopted the same style of governance as the feudal system of the King and his Chiefs. The top was always telling the lower levels what to do. The people were always at the receiving end. Orders would come from the top and be implemented without question at lower levels.
This was very characteristic of the situation we had in 1994. The orders to kill, to wipe out a section of the population, came from the top, and the lower levels simply executed the orders.
Other factors become apparent when you look at the situation more deeply. Firstly, the suggestion is that the society is underdeveloped. Secondly, it is not an open society where information is shared, discussed and people are aware of what is happening around them.
The media became a very effective tool for the leaders to issue orders to the lower levels to execute. For example they would simply say that a section of the population is very bad, the RPF are foreigners who have come to take over your property and kill you, so go ahead and kill them. So at the lower levels, people said the master has said we should go and kill people, so they did so. The media was used to incite people, to spread propaganda, which became extremely effective, and that is how we lost over one million people in the Genocide.
So in the Genocide, one should not only look at the many people who lost their lives, which is significant of course, but one should also read in that the nature of the politics we had in our country. The Genocide really summarises our history.
Our challenge today is to undo that political thinking and dynamic. It is a big challenge because it means that what led to the Genocide had become a way of life for the majority of people. Getting that out of their minds and changing their thinking is our major concern.

Question: Is your political programme on schedule?


PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Yes. I would say that it is on schedule. However, we need to be realistic. We are looking at what we can realistically expect to achieve given our capacities and resources. We are concentrating on doing the right thing, and doing it at the right pace. I think, in a broad sense, the pace is good, and we are well within the time frame we set earlier.

Question: You are in the process of writing a new constitution. Do you think it will be a panacea for Rwanda's problems?


PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I think the constitution is very important. Firstly, it will be hinged on the views, concerns and opinions of the people. The Constitutional Commission has been touring the country to solicit the views of the people. This is the first time the people of Rwanda are being consulted directly about the constitution. The commission has also gone to other countries to see what we can learn from their experience. We are working at tailoring a constitution according to our unique situation.
The constitution itself does not provide a solution to every problem. But it provides the basic rules and guidelines for governance and politics of the country. That is very important.

Question: Your Government is often referred to as a 'Government of National Unity'. How was it established, and why was it necessary?


PRESIDENT KAGAME:
The background to it lies in our history. This country has more or less been seen as 'belonging' to the section of the population in power. This is the history that destroyed our country. However, given that history, once taking over power, our formula was to bring together all the people of Rwanda, all the political parties, to form a Government that belongs to all the people of the country. We decided to bring all of them together as a resource of Rwanda.
The Government is a 'Government of National Unity' because when the RPF took over power, it did not see itself as the only political force that should govern the country. The RPF saw itself as being part of others in the mainstream of politics of the country. A government was assembled comprising members of the political parties that existed at the time. This has continued to characterise the way the Government works. We have always said, 'nobody should be left out.' The National Assembly is formed on the basis of bringing parties together. There are eight political parties represented in the National Assembly. The Cabinet is formed on the same basis, with five parties represented.
This is very important for our politics in Rwanda. Nobody should be left out or feel excluded from the political process.

Question: Your country recently changed its national anthem and emblem. What does this signify?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
National symbols reflect the political life and purpose of a nation. In our case, the old national symbols highlighted the differences within the society and sought to emphasise them to the detriment of everyone.
Since 1994 we have taken time to debate some of the issues facing our country, including that of the national symbols, which had clearly highlighted divisive politics instead of the politics of unity and development. We are telling Rwandans that it does not matter how different you think you are from your neighbour or from others. That shouldn't be used to cause problems, rather you should find something good in that for the common good of all. Diversity should be brought together for the good and benefit of all.
We decided to change the symbols so that emphasis shifts from divisive politics to reconciliation and national unity. Apart from national unity, the new symbols also emphasise work and development.

Question: A census was recently carried out to establish the number of people who died in the Genocide. The final figure of those killed was over one million. How is your country coping with this?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
It is a huge problem, and forms the bulk of problems we have to deal with. The genocide shattered every aspect of the social fabric of Rwanda. There is nearly no household in Rwanda that was not affected directly or indirectly. We now have hundreds of thousands of orphans and widows to care for. These people need attention they need to be provided for.
You may be aware that we have set aside 5% of our national revenue to provide for the needs of orphans and widows. So Government made the commitment that annually, 5% of all Government revenue will be allocated to dealing with the problems for the survivors, orphans and widows of the Genocide.
But it really is a challenge, losing one million people to Genocide. I am often surprised, however, by how the world seems to be either ignorant or indifferent to this problem. I do not understand how people can be ignorant or indifferent to such a huge problem that exploded before the eyes of the world.
While one can excuse people not understanding the problem while it was taking place, five, seven years down the road people have no excuse not to understand what happened.
It took the death of 3,000 innocent people in the US on September 11th 2001 for the world to pay attention to terrorism. It took the death of those innocent lives to highlight the problems caused by terrorism - terrorism of whatever nature. In Rwanda we lost 10,000 innocent people everyday for 100 days. Why doesn't this attract any attention?
We will not spend too much time on that though. The most important thing for us is to mobilise the people of Rwanda to understand their problems and to get them give whatever they have so that they can face the future with hope.

Question: There have been calls for the some ICTR trials to be transferred to Rwanda. Do you have the capacity to handle these trials? How do you intend to go about it? There are also concerns that the trials may not be fair here. What do you say to that?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
The capacity is there, but if it were not the resources of the Arusha tribunal should be transferred here. Trials are taking place here, and I do not think they are any less fair than what is happening in Arusha. In any case, the transfer that is being discussed is for ICTR, to conduct trials in Rwanda, which they would take responsibility for, or for Rwanda to conduct trials in collaboration with ICTR.

Question: What are your thoughts about the delays in trying suspects in Arusha, in view of the fact that justice delayed is justice denied?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
There are two issues we must separate. I appreciate the existence of ICTR. It associates the international community with our problems. On the other hand, with regard to the efficiency with which cases are handled that is another issue, which is where most people have a problem.

Question: Can you comment on why it was necessary for your Government to introduce Gacaca traditional justice?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We have been in a catch 22 situation. We have had so many people in prison, and indeed we have been unable to cope with the huge caseload in a reasonable period of time. Delaying cases, causing people to have to wait in prison is not a situation we created. It was a problem created by the problem itself. No single country in this world would have the capacity to process over 100,000 cases in the context of the time required by international standards of justice.
But then we could not simply ignore the cases. We could not simply say, 'Ok let the suspects go home because we cannot try them now.' There was always the danger that they would face mob justice, or commit other crimes if we did that.
It therefore became necessary for us to improvise an alternative. In our history, we had courts composed of people of integrity in the community who would sit together to hear cases and make decisions. In most cases, they were fair.
We thought we could re-introduce this system. It also has the advantage of aiming to reconcile people, rehabilitate the offender and bring them back into the community.
There have been cases of people being acquitted by conventional courts, and the population being convinced that the individual is guilty. They then resort to mob justice, or the person who was acquitted fears to return home so moves to another part of the country or leaves the country altogether. We believe that the people should be involved in the process of justice so that they do not feel excluded from the process.
One cannot, certainly, say that Gacaca is perfect. But with the various scenarios we are facing, it is certainly better than any alternative.

Question: What is the current state of the economy, and the wealth creation and distribution capacity of the country?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
When we took over the governance of Rwanda, we found all institutions had been destroyed. There were no schools, health centres had been destroyed, there were no doctors, no teachers, the agricultural sector had collapsed, and what existed before was not impressive anyway.
From 1994, we have concentrated on working to build institutions that can enable us to realise our capacities. We carried out a number of economic and political reforms in this process of building institutions.
You know, before 1994, Rwanda was almost entirely dependent on donors for basic survival. They were not even collecting a fifth of what we are collecting today in tax revenue. So we are generating as much revenue as we can generate ourselves, and our development partners provide what assistance they can. The focus is for us to continue to develop our own economic capacity. The development partners should only help us develop our capacity up to a certain point, but not for us to depend on them. That has been our main focus.
We have also created a strong process of accountability for public expenditure. We are doing it rationally, at all levels of government aiming to develop it into a culture.
Consequently, today, we are doing better than most countries in the region in terms of Revenue/GDP ratio. The rate is currently about 11.3% in Rwanda. In the region I think only Kenya is higher with about 18%, largely because of the highly productive and commercialised agricultural sector.
We are focussing on long-term objectives as well, focussing on better education and healthcare, realising that our greatest resource is our people. We have to educate them, train them, to increase their capacity to be a productive resource. So, for example, since 1995 we have increased the intake at primary level to five-fold of what it was before the war started. We have slightly more than doubled secondary school intake in the same period. At the higher education level, we have produced more graduates in the last seven years than the previous governments produced in the thirty years between independence and 1994.
So we have really been focusing on addressing many short, medium and long -term objectives at the same time.

Question: What challenges are you facing in the reconstruction process?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Well, we are facing a number of challenges. We can talk about political issues, human rights and so on, but if the people of your country have nothing to eat, are desperately poor and if they constantly worry about security, then you have serious problems.
Security in a broader sense, where you focus on a people's wellbeing as well as their physical security, this is the foundation upon which to build everything else. Dealing with poverty is therefore extremely important for us. We must concentrate on building the human resources and financial capacity to implement policies that will bring about positive change in the lives of our people.
For Governance issues like democratisation and decentralisation, I find them much simpler to implement, if we could achieve some of the more basic priorities. The democratisation and decentralisation processes are on-course and ongoing. We have had elections at the grassroots and district levels, and the central government has devolved much power to the elected district local governments.
Another challenge and priority for us is having a real national constitution, one that reflects the views of the people and addresses our history of political problems. We are looking at 2003 as the year we shall have a new constitution, after which we shall have general elections.

Question: Rwanda is strategically placed in the Great Lakes region and has played a leading role in the events in the region. What is your policy in the region?

PRESIDENT KAGAME
The primary objective that is reflected in our policy in the region is to live at peace with our neighbours. Not only have we sought to do this, but we have also been working hard to promote regional integration.
We appreciate and commend the efforts of the East African leaders in reviving the East African Community. We hope that it will soon embrace other countries as well.
Some people might mistakenly say that our regional policy is incompatible with the presence of our forces in the DRC. But one must look at the issue factually. For example, in 1994 tens of thousands of Rwandan refugees fled to Tanzania, and there were many more who fled to what was then Zaire. But we had no problem at all with Tanzania. This is because Tanzania caused no problems for us at all with regard to these refugees. The refugees were eventually repatriated to Rwanda peacefully and reintegrated into society.
The situation was different with those who went to Zaire. (Former President) Mobutu got involved to support those who were responsible for the Genocide in Rwanda. It is on that basis that we got involved in the Congo, and are still involved there. Kinshasa continues to support the Genocidaire.
For us it is an issue of survival. It is either we sit here in Rwanda and watch as Congo organises these Genocidaire to come and destabilise and destroy us, or we step in and say enough is enough, put this to an end. Our actions in Congo have been based simply on our desire for security in our country.

Question: If peace was guaranteed for Rwanda, would you pullout of the DRC?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Very much so. Immediately. I once challenged the UN Security Council to make this problem their problem, to take it up and say 'we are not going to allow anybody to organise in the DRC to attack Rwanda.' If the UN Security Council simply made that commitment to us, in a way that is credible, we would leave the DRC immediately. But as it is now, we have no guarantees. All we want are guarantees for our security.
But Rwanda's experience is that we must take care of our problems ourselves. If the world leaves a problem to us to solve ourselves, then we will solve it the way can.

Question: Some people say that your interest in the DRC is more to do with economic exploitation.

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
That is simply not credible. Those who say that are simply trying to run away from the problem. They are trying to look for other reasons to force us out of Congo before we have the requisite guarantees. They hope that we might be scared or intimidated by these allegations to the extent that we would be weakened and forced out of Congo.
The investigations have been carried out, and the second UN report clearly found no credible evidence implicating Rwanda.
We have also told the international community not to confuse issues. We have asked them not to mix up our security concerns with allegations of exploitation. We have asked them to first prove us wrong by addressing our security concerns. If they did that, we would have no reason to remain in Congo.

Question: There are also allegations that your presence in Congo is part of an expansionist, hegemonic plan?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Really, I think that people making these allegations are not serious. How can Rwanda have hegemonic ambitions? What would make Rwanda want to take over the whole region? We have so many problems in Rwanda to deal with, why would we want to add on the problems of other countries? We have our plate full already. Adding to our problems those of Congo and other countries, really why would we want to do that?

Question: What is the state of your relations with Uganda?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We have been making good progress, good inroads in improving relations. I will not dwell on the past, because we are more concerned with the progress we are making than the problems of the past.

Question: What about your relations with Kenya?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We have had very good relations with Kenya. Kenya has been very supportive of various processes, and above all, Kenyans have been actively involved in the economic reconstruction of the country. There is a lot of business taking place between both countries, which is very healthy both economically and politically. We must therefore encourage it. I am really very happy with our relations with Kenya.

Question: Mr. President, is there any message you would like to give Kenyan investors and businessmen about the new dynamics in Rwanda?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
First of all, I would like Kenyans to know that Rwanda is a peaceful country. There is peace and security throughout the country, and one can be assured of that.
Secondly, we have been working at putting an enabling environment in place that will encourage and attract investors. We have enacted laws that make the investment climate as friendly and favourable as possible for potential investors.
Thirdly, Kenyan investors should know that investing in Rwanda gives them greater access to some parts of this region, like eastern Congo, Burundi, and some parts of southern Uganda like Kabale that are even closer to Rwanda than they are to Kampala. So the market is not just in Rwanda, it is also the neighbouring countries.

Question: Finally Mr. President, what is your vision for Rwanda? Where do you see Rwanda in ten years time?

PRESIDENT KAGAME:
My vision for Rwanda is for a united country that sees itself as integrated into the sub-regional family of nations, a country that is developed and has eradicated poverty, a country that is democratic, and above all, a stable country at peace with itself as well as with its neighbours.

© The Government of Rwanda.