Kagame urges Security Council to seek a political solution to DRC conflict
On 11th May 2002, President Kagame spoke to a group of Belgian journalists from RTBF about the Inter-Congolese Dialogue, Belgium's role in the peace process, the future of the DRC, the Gacaca programme in Rwanda and the arrest of former president Pasteur Bizimungu. Full transcript of interview below:
RTBF: Are you concerned that you have been left out of the Sun City agreement for the DRC?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We are not Congolese ourselves. The Sun City dialogue was for the Congolese. What we are asking for is to have a working process in place to resolve the issues that have remained outstanding for sometime.
That is why the Sun City dialogue took place. The Inter-Congolese Dialogue in Sun City was within the framework of the Lusaka Agreement, and was meant to bring all the parties in the DRC together to reach an agreement upon which they can begin a transition that could lead to democratic elections and a better future.
What actually happened in Sun City was an agreement was reached outside the framework provided for by the Lusaka Agreement. It was, in effect, an agreement between two parties that could have been reached even without going to Sun City, because they disregarded other participants.
I am only speaking in the context of what is good for the Congolese, but ultimately one needs to look at how that affects the region as a whole. Rwanda specifically has significant security concerns originating from the Congo situation. To this extent, we are one of the parties that are interested in the DRC finding an inclusive solution that will work, not only for the Congolese, but also for Congo's neighbours.
There is no question whatsoever of fears or concerns about being left out.
RTBF: What is the future of RCD Goma in the DRC?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
That question should be asked to the Congolese, both the RCD and the others. Besides, I think that one should look at the whole Congolese situation, not only the RCD. There are other groups as well, the UDPS, some Lumumbist groups, and only yesterday I heard on the News that the President of South Africa met with over a dozen parties, that want an inclusive solution to the problems in the Congo.
RTBF: Do you fear a military reaction against Rwanda from the new Bemba-Kabila coalition?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I do not know whether that coalition was formed to fight wars or create another crisis beyond what we already have. But if that was at the back of their minds, I think they have Congolese people to deal with before they confront us, because there are more Congolese who are dissatisfied with what they are doing. They are not bringing a solution to the problems in the Congo. I think, they will have to deal with their own people before they deal with Rwanda.
In any case, I think it would be far-fetched to be concerned about any fighting waged against us, from whichever faction. The issue is not fighting Rwanda, I think the issue is resolving the problems of Congo.
RTBF: Do you consider Belgian diplomacy a problem to the peace process?
Well, it hasn't created a solution, but I do not know whether it is a problem. I think that all diplomatic efforts should be aimed at finding a solution. So far the solution has not been forthcoming. I would be reluctant to say that anybody in particular is a problem. I can only say that we have not found a solution, the problem is still with us.
Perhaps, diplomatic strategies would have to be looked at once again to see whether they can be changed, and whether the facts on which that diplomacy has been based could not be revised.
RTBF: Do you think Congo will be dismantled?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Congo is in effect dismantled right now, in the sense that it is split in different parts, each with their own government. The facts speak for themselves, Congo is a dismantled state.
The whole essence of the Inter-Congolese Dialogue in Sun City was to bring Congo back together again. There is always a danger that if you do not find a solution that brings all these parts together, you will either remain with the status quo, which is not good, or the situation might even deteriorate. But this is hypothetical, I am not saying it will happen.
But that is the focus. It is to get out of the status quo, and also to avoid things getting worse. That is why we continue to push for the peace process.
RTBF: Why is Rwanda intervening against Masunzu in Uvira? Is it not Congolese business?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
Sure it is Congolese business. It is their business, as long as they are resolving the problems of Congo and are not creating problems for us. However, for the last few years we have defined and made clear the reasons for our presence in the Congo. If somebody, simply for the dislike of Rwanda, decides to take us on for one reason or another, and diverts us from our main objective, then Rwanda's reaction is obvious.
But Masunzu does not attack Rwanda?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I am not sure where you get your facts from, but the facts I have tell a different story.
RTBF: What do you think of the proposal of the UN Security Council to create buffer zones on the borders?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We have discussed this at the preliminary level with Security Council, and have agreed that it is something we need to discuss further to work out the details.
However, we are fully agreed on two things. Whatever methodology we use to address Rwanda's security concerns, we must look firstly at the deployment itself. But we must also address another crucial point. Problems of this nature cannot be solved by simply creating a corridor or buffer zone. You resolve the problem more fundamentally by dealing with the root cause.
The problem I am talking about is not the existence of ex-FAR/Interahamwe in the DRC. I am talking about those who make them a problem for us. Those who supply them, those help them. That is the Government in Kinshasa.
We agreed with the Security Council on these two points. Deployment in terms of physically dealing with the problem on the ground. But more importantly is the aspect of the support from Kinshasa. This is the political aspect of the problem, and we are agreed with the Security Council that we should explore the proposals further.
RTBF: You are ready to discuss this with Kabila?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We are very ready to discuss with whoever can contribute to the solution. But we are talking about a Government, not an individual. I was also talking about finding a political solution and military solution as well. This should be done in combination.
Marc Hoogsteyns: There are a number of groups opposed to your Government that are active outside Rwanda, like ARENA, the royalist party and so on. What is your message to them, because they are criticising your Government quite openly?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I believe that people are free to criticise what we are doing. Such people will always exist in society, even those who do not have an argument or point to make. There will be those who are ignorant about what is happening, but still want to raise their voices and be heard. There are some who are misguided for one reason or another.
What I consider to be the most important point is the growing strength of what we are building here in Rwanda. That, for me, is the most important issue. When you talk of economic growth, the reconstruction process, reconciliation, democratisation, the human rights situation, the overall political governance of the country, security, in all these areas we have made tremendous progress and built a very firm foundation. The majority of people in Rwanda are engaged in these processes and are happy.
There is a minority of misguided or disgruntled people who, from outside the country criticise what we are doing. But I believe that what we are doing should be tested here, at the grassroots, among the ordinary people of Rwanda. That is where you see the progress we have made, where people live in peace and are engaged in production, working with their elected local governments to improve the quality of their lives.
We will continue to extend a hand, an olive branch, to these groups based outside the country. It is up to them to take advantage of that. In the meantime, we shall continue to concentrate on the issues that matter for the people here in Rwanda.
RTBF: Mr. President, if we can talk about Rwanda now. Why has it taken eight years to find a solution to the problem of so many people in prison through Gacaca?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
We are dealing with a very complex situation. It is a situation we inherited, which we have been struggling to find a solution for. The idea of Gacaca itself came at a much later stage, after we had been grappling with the problem for sometime. The idea emerged, perhaps a couple of years after the genocide.
RTBF: But couldn't you have moved quicker with the classical justice system?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I wish that were the case. Perhaps it would have been possible if the international community gave us the legal professionals to work here and try all these cases. If we had 10,000 or so lawyers sitting simultaneously hearing these cases, perhaps we would have moved quicker. But as this assistance was not forthcoming, and we had to deal with the problem ourselves, we decided to improvise with Gacaca. If we were to rely on our classical justice system, which was crippled by the genocide, then it would take some hundreds of years to try all the cases.
Gacaca has taken long to put in effect because, as it is an improvised system, we had to study the likely flaws and the safeguards we could build into the system. We have not only focussed attention on the outcome of Gacaca, but also the process that would give us the outcomes.
We have also been conducting education and public awareness exercises, not only for those who will participate as judges or witnesses, but also the prisoners themselves. We have been educating prisoners to understand what their rights are under that process.
RTBF: Mr. President why is Pasteur Bizimungu in prison?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
There are three basic reasons. Firstly, when he was President, he very forcefully argued against the formation of new political parties before the end of the transitional period. He actually even stopped a number of political parties from being formed, using rules and regulations all parties had agreed to.
When he resigned from office after facing problems with parliament and the party to which he belonged, he tried to form a political party. The very laws he applied in preventing others from forming parties were invoked. He was told that he should respect the law.
The second reason was that not only did he try to form a political party, which he knew was against the law, but also the party he formed was a sectarian party. Within the laws of the country, this is prohibited. It is prohibited now in the transitional period, and will be in the future in the interest of stability and our lessons from the politics of the past.
Thirdly, it was later discovered that he is deeply involved in a bank fraud scandal. Massive fraud took place in BACAR bank and he was deeply involved.
RTBF: Is he a political prisoner?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
No, I think it is clear from the reasons for which he was arrested that he is not a political prisoner.
RTBF: Are you worried by the creation a new coalition opposed to your Government, bringing together, for the first time, and armed movement and the monarchists?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
I am not aware about that. But if it exists, it is ok. We will live with it. I don't see any problem. We are not going to prevent formations of groups of whatever nature. If they are legal, we can very ably coexist with them. If they are illegal, then the law will apply against them.
RTBF: Mr. President, people say that they are afraid to express themselves and they do not have freedom of speech. Is this true?
PRESIDENT KAGAME:
If you are talking about two or three people who have said this out of eight million people, I think that would be very unfair judgement. Since 1994, what we have been doing is creating an environment that would enable and encourage free speech. Of course free speech should exercised responsibly. But personally, the Government of National Unity, the National Assembly and the Judiciary have been working to create that kind of environment. I think that perhaps we even have greater freedom of speech than anywhere else in the region.
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