Kagame says significant progress has been made over the last nine years

LAST Thursday, President Kagame granted an interview to journalists from the East African and East African Standard newspapers. They discussed a wide range of issues, including the progress made by the Government over the last nine years, the Genocide, the forthcoming referendum on the new constitution, justice, relations with Uganda and the situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo. We reproduce excepts of the interview below:

Question: Mr. President, you were quoted by the media recently as reflecting on leadership. You said it is challenging. This month you mark three years in office, what are the challenges you have faced in your presidency?

President KAGAME: There have been many challenges, but as I said in that particular speech, you can only enjoy this position in leadership if you are just sitting and enjoying the position without doing anything for your people. But if you are to go out to confront people's problems and try to find solutions, some of which do not come easily, it is a very difficult job indeed. Another point I made in that speech, is it is difficult if you are a leader of a country like Rwanda, which is not independent to make your own decisions, because there are all kinds of outsiders breathing down your neck trying to interfere. With our own people we can sit together, discuss issues, agree, disagree, repeat tomorrow, and eventually find a consensus. But you cannot imagine the difficulties when you have other people to dictate to you what you should and should not do, threatening not to give money if you do this or don't do something else. It is a big challenge. If you do not have your own means to execute what is in the interests of your people, it becomes a big challenge. On the other hand, it is very rewarding when we realize that we are making some headway with the people of the country in overcoming our many challenges. For example, with problems relating to the genocide, managing the victims, managing the perpetrators, trying to bring them back together in a difficult process of reconciliation. When you realize that there is progress and people are gradually accepting to live together, despite this bad history, it is very rewarding. When you are moving forward it is very rewarding because one feels that one is making a contribution to one's country and people. Also, whatever developments can be made from our own resources or through contributions from partners, being able to make some positive difference in people's lives, again you feel that it is something to be happy about.

Question: The political events for this year suggest you are undergoing great reform - one phase of transition to another. What does the balance sheet look like after nine years?

President KAGAME: Well, to answer that, I will take you into our history. Our country has gone through very turbulent times for decades. We had a lot of problems in the pre-colonial, colonial and post-colonial eras. The very fact that genocide took place here in Rwanda is indicative of the fact that something must have gone seriously wrong in our history. When we took over power in 1994, it was our understanding that it would be a very challenging task to correct the ills of that history. The ills took place over many years and correcting them would not be done in a short period of time. Rather, we recognized that it would be a long process to try to put things right. In order to do that, we had to target certain areas. For example, we had to work seriously on encouraging everyone to get together so that we could analyze this history together, understand what went wrong and map out what is required of us to overcome the problems of the past. This brings us to the question of reconciliation of our people - bringing the people of Rwanda back together into one nation, which it had been for centuries. Reconciliation could only be built on understanding our history, and working together to deal with the problems we were facing. We had to address the problem of the Genocide, we had to understand what underlay it, we had to deal with the question of justice. A mix of reconciliation and justice is quite a challenging balancing act, but in any case we have been able to do it. Today, as I am sure you have noticed, people are ready to live together. There could still be a few problems here and there, but generally, my sense is that countrywide, people are willing to live together, work together, and find what is commonly good for them as a nation, than ever before. We must keep working at this, it takes a long time, it is not something you resolve overnight, or in a year or two. We have also invested in insuring that there is peace and security within our borders. There is an on-going process of democratization, which ensures that the population can exercise their right to express their choice of who should be their leaders. We have also been focusing on a very serious issue that affects our continent, which is poverty. We have been focusing on how we can improve the living standards of the people of Rwanda. So in the last nine years, we have made quite significant progress against many odds.

Question: On the issue of Genocide, what place should it occupy in Rwanda's history, and how should succeeding generations of Rwandans relate to it?

President KAGAME: Genocide is central to the history of Rwanda and Rwandans because it is an expression of what went so badly wrong in our history. We must therefore understand the causes of the problem, confront them and address them. It plays a central role, it tells us about our history, it tells us about the present, and it tells us about the future as well, informing us that if we are to move into the future with hope, there are certain issues that we must address without question. Otherwise there is always a danger that if we do things wrong, there is a possibility of sliding back. I am sure that all the people of Rwanda, irrespective of their backgrounds, would not wish that to happen again. It caused a disaster for everyone. There is nobody in Rwanda who did not suffer from this bad period in our history. So reason will have to prevail in informing everyone that we cannot have a repeat of this kind of thing at any cost.

Question: The constitution-making process has been a very important process for Rwanda, marking the end of the transition. We would like to know how far this process has gone, and regarding the referendum, what exactly will Rwandans be voting for?

President KAGAME: Firstly, the constitutional process which has been going on for a year and a half now, is a very important one in reshaping our nation, in building a new Rwanda, a Rwanda that must be different from that we have had in the past years, which had bad history that resulted in genocide. In other words, this constitution provides for us a framework and sets of rules by which people can engage in politics, respecting the rights of everyone. For genocide to have happened, as I said, it was because of the bad politics that was exercised during our history. So it is a political issue that must be addressed broadly. The constitution sets the rules by which people will play politics, putting into consideration all these aspects of our history that made genocide possible, and guarding against them. These rules originated from the expressions and wishes of the general population. The Constitutional Commission which comprised representatives of all the political parties in Rwanda put the views of the whole population together. They toured the whole country, went to the grassroots, asked the people questions, allowed them to express their views about different aspects of nationhood. The Commission also traveled outside the country, to study the constitutions of other countries, and how those constitutions had been assembled to address specific questions. The intention was for them to learn from the experiences of others, and then seeing how we could be enriched by that experience. It has really been a very comprehensive process, learning from different perspectives, both internal and external. We have also said that a constitution should address the problems associated with our history, and it should also encapsulate formulae that would help us deal with concerns like reconciliation. If you want to institutionalize reconciliation, you must seriously think about power-sharing. So the constitution also addresses questions like power-sharing. It also addresses separation of powers and human rights, among many other issues. In my view, the consultation has been very comprehensive. What has been put together is also very comprehensive. However, you will never have a perfect situation. Perhaps there are a few things here and there that down the road one discovers. But as something to start with, and something that forms a foundation for us, I am satisfied that good work has been done. Once the ideas were compiled by the Commission following wide consultation with the population, the document came to Cabinet. Cabinet discussed it extensively, brought in a few ideas, made suggestions then the document went to parliament. Parliament has also discussed it, making suggestions to the Commission about what needs to be altered or confirmed, a process that I understand they completed yesterday. The final product is what is going for the referendum. What the referendum will do is to ask the population, 'Is this a good document for you or not?' If the constitution is adopted, we will confirm it then we move forward with it to elections, starting with presidential elections which will probably take place in July. We should be able to have presidential elections in July, then parliamentary elections in August. If we meet any problems, then we might hold the presidential elections in August and parliamentary election in September. For sure this year we end the transition, have a new constitution and have presidential and parliamentary elections. It is going to be a very busy year for us.

Question: Talking about the constitution, parliament has approved the presidential term for seven years. What was the RPF's position on this? Did you support it or did you support five years?

President KAGAME: First of all, my personal position has been to support five years. I argued it in my party and in Cabinet, but on that issue people seemed to have a different view. I supported five years, two terms, and I made that clear to everyone. There were different scenarios, some suggesting five years, others suggesting seven years, others suggesting six years as a compromise between the two. There was hot debate about it. The Commission told us that the population had worries based on their experience of the past. They told us that the common view from across the country was to allow for two consecutive five year terms, then one could leave office for at least one term and come back for one more five year term. Debates continued, we had a huge gathering to discuss the draft constitution last year, with representatives from right around the country, members of civil society and people living in the Diaspora. In that meeting, debates were between two five year terms, two consecutive five year terms, then another one five year term later on, and that is when the idea of two seven year terms came up. The Commission continued with consultation. There were concerns among the population, who thought we should have a long period of time without going through elections, because in Rwanda elections were associated with instability. People would be killed, others would have to flee the country, houses burnt, there was always chaos. The population was also opposed to multiparty politics. But here the leadership had to step in and take responsibility. We believed that on this one we needed to help the population understand some of the dangers involved in trying to simply do away with parties completely. There are many other problems associated with that. If they wanted to do away with parties, they could do it naturally through the process of voting, but not legislating that parties should not exist. We had a meeting of the RPF congress at the end of last year. We debated the issue of the presidential term at length, but there was no consensus. The majority was in favour of two seven year terms. So, personally, I was over-ruled.

Question: Turning to justice issues, could you tell us how the recent release of 40,000 prisoners has impacted on the unity and reconciliation process? Some victims are not very happy, and may feel that justice has not been done.

President KAGAME: Difficult as this situation has always been for us, the release of these prisoners had two sides to it. However, one needs to ask oneself, what was the origin and basis for this? The basis was to try and solve the problems based on the laws that exist in the country. We agreed for example that the terminally ill and old people should be released. This was agreed in Cabinet, there was general consensus on it. At some point we also released minors, young children who were used to commit genocide. There were other cases as well. We created an incentive to encourage people to come out and tell the truth. We agreed that suspects who confess and assist with investigations would benefit from a reduction in sentence when it comes to a trial. For different charges we have different sentences. So if the sentence for a crime an individual is accused of is a maximum of ten years, if they confessed and were found to be genuine, then the sentence will be halved, making it five years. We had a number of people coming out and confessing because of this incentive we created. So in cases where a maximum sentence is fifteen years for example, and someone comes out and confesses and is found to be genuine, it means that the person would only serve half that sentence, which is seven and a half years. Now if that person has already spent eight years in prison, what is the purpose of continuing to keep them there? Why keep someone in prison if they have confessed and they have served more time than the reduced sentence?

Question: What is the Government doing for the victims?

President KAGAME: That is a different matter. The Government has to do something for the victims irrespective of what is happening with the prisoners. The Government has responsibility for the victims, whether a prisoner serves fifteen years, or has the sentence halved. The fact that a suspect remains in prison or is released does not remove the Government's responsibility to the victims and survivors. What are we doing for the victims? Firstly, we ensure that there is security for every Rwandan, including specifically the survivors who may be more targeted than others. Secondly, we set aside 5% of our revenue every year, to help the survivors. The sum is usually around 4 billion francs. We pay schools fees of the children, we have helped them with shelter, we have taken care of their medical treatment because some of them were very ill with serious injuries. It is not enough, for sure. Problems still come up, despite the money that we put aside for them. We are constantly looking for ways to deal with what remains of the problem. But we are simply over-stretched. We have too many problems to attend to at the same time. We cannot resolve every problem at the same time, but we try our best.

Question: What impact has the release of prisoners had on the number of people in prison?

President KAGAME: First of all, we have already released toward 40,000. There is relief in the prisons, because they were over-crowded with over 100,000 people. If you remove 40,000 it creates relief, not only to the management of the prisons, but also to those who stay there, and their families. The survivors may not be happy with this, and I understand them. I understand their position fully, because those who for example lost their whole family, it doesn't matter if you keep someone in prison for thirty years, that will not return their loved ones. It is really a complex issue.

Question: Mr. President, in our last interview you said that you are unhappy with the trials in Arusha. Is that still your position?

President KAGAME: The situation has not improved. I am still unhappy, perhaps the situation might be worse today than it was the last time we met. It does not make sense. You have a tribunal with expenses running into hundreds of millions of dollars. I am told that over six hundred million dollars has been spent on this tribunal, and when you look at the results, only a handful of cases have been completed, and others are just lying there like the case of Bagosora who is a real mastermind of the genocide.

Question: The response of the international community in the aftermath of the genocide did not go down well with you. How have you defined your relations with the international community, and how are you building relations?

President KAGAME: The international community is there and you have to live with it whether you like it or not. But there is a lot of unfairness, when you look at what happened here before their very eyes, and them doing very little even now. But they are there and one has to live with the situation.

Question: Mr. President, the ordinary Rwandans and Ugandans seem to have defied the saber rattling between their two governments. What kind of message does this send to you as leaders?

President KAGAME: It says that we the leaders should go the same way as our people. I have said this before. It is our failure as leaders not to be able to eradicate the source of these problems. Indeed, the people from both sides have no problem with each other. I still subscribe to the view that we need to do more than we are doing.

Question: Mr. President, still on the same issue, when you met with your colleagues from the region in South Africa, you set a deadline for Uganda to pull out of Congo. They were supposed to leave by day. But reports coming from there say that the UN has refused Uganda to leave. You said that if Uganda does not leave Congo by this time, then Rwanda would have to take some measures….

President KAGAME: I do not know where you got that from. I have read with a lot of amazement, the leaders in Uganda, the newspapers, and now yourself, saying Rwanda gives Uganda an ultimatum. But if you read the statement, it is very clear. We have never given Uganda an ultimatum. The meaning of the statement is a petition to the UN, to the international community, saying if you accept that Uganda should stay in the Congo to deal with its problems, then Rwanda has a right, at a time of it's choosing, to go back to Congo to deal with what remains of our problem. This is really what the statement says if you read it carefully. We have never given an ultimatum. We were simply warning the international community not to have double standards, and that we would be justified, at the time we find it necessary to go back to Congo to deal with our problem, to do so. What Uganda and the UN are doing, if they have consequences on the general situation which affects others then they will see the benefits and problems created by that. Rwanda has a bottom line. That is our security. At a time we feel that our security is threatened by anybody, we will act in a manner of our choosing. Whether it means going back to Congo, or doing it here, we will do it.

Question: A senior Ugandan minister says that you have troops in the Congo. Do you?

President KAGAME: You are journalists, go there and do your own investigations. Don't wait for what I say or what Mbabazi (Ugandan Defence Minister) is saying. In any case, Mbabazi does not deploy our forces, I do. And I am telling you, they are not there and you can go there and find out. And if we were there, we would be there in a meaningful way, in a presence that would be felt, not a presence that you can hide. We would be there for a purpose, and the presence would be felt. We would do it publicly and explain our reasons.

Question: Mr. President, during your recent visit to France, you took a very bold stand, saying that sometimes unilateralism can work. What is your perspective on this given the situation in the Great Lakes region and the slow response to crises by the international community?

President KAGAME: My position answers the question you are raising, and is broader than unilateralism. I was not highlighting unilateralism as a way to solve problems. I was highlighting the failures of the UN, giving the case of Rwanda as an example, and the double standards in the international system. When France opposed the US going into Iraq, I was not convinced by them. They were saying that the US cannot go there without authorization from the UN. Yet in 1994, France said they were coming to Rwanda, with or without the permission of the UN. The UN only created a resolution after the French had arrived here for Operation Turquoise. The issue for them is not trying to respect the UN. If they did respect the UN they would not have said in 1994 that they are coming to Rwanda with or without a UN mandate. I also said that sometimes, bold actions must be taken, even if it means war. I went on to say that war should not simply be avoided for the sake of it. But it must be justified. And the absence of war does not mean peace and tranquility. We had genocide in Rwanda. Nobody was coming in to stop it. Should we have sat back and waited until the genocide came to an end, because war is a bad thing that must be avoided? Our view is that genocide is worse. Would it be justified or not to wage war to stop genocide? Nobody likes war, but some wars are justified. So my statement in Paris was to rationalize that kind of thinking, and to highlight the double standards and the failures of the international community.

Question: Finally Mr. President, if you were to address a conference of investors, what would be your message to them. What kinds of investment opportunities do think are of great potential?

President KAGAME: Firstly, we have succeeded in creating security and stability throughout the country. That is always a priority for investors, they want security and stability, and we have that. Stability goes beyond people being able to sleep in peace every night. Investors also want a situation which is predictable. They ask, what is the governance situation, the laws, what are the incentives for investors, all this creates a sense of stability for them. They also know that in Rwanda they can do business at a minimum cost, without one having to bribe their way at every door. Zero-tolerance for corruption is enshrined in our whole governance situation, which is good in the case of Rwanda. We have made headway in improving governance, ensuring accountability within the systems of government, we encourage transparency, fight corruption. All this attracts investors. We have also established the Rwanda Investment Promotion Agency, which outlines the details of potential areas of investment, and helps them go through the process without delays or obstacles. It also outlines the incentives for investors, in terms of Rwanda's geographical location, membership of COMESA and other such organizations that make doing business in the region easier, repatriation of earnings, taxes and so on. But the key thing really in security and stability, which is the major thing investors are looking for. Rwanda is both stable and secure. There are great investment opportunities in tourism, telecommunications, in Information and Communication Technologies (ICT), in tea, the energy sector, and so on.

ENDS.