President Kagame in conversation with Clare Short about the achievements of the Government since 1994

During her five-day visit to Rwanda last week, the former UK Minister for International Development, Rt. Hon. Clare Short MP held an interview with President Paul Kagame on the achievements of the Government of National Unity since 1994, and his vision for the development of the country over the next few years. A segment of this interview was broadcast on a primetime BBC Radio 4 current affairs programme in the UK on Wednesday 25th June 2003. Below is the transcript of the interview;

Clare Short: Could you describe to us the conditions of Rwanda when your government took over in 1994?

President KAGAME: Well, the situation in 1994 was very bad. We had lost one million people in the genocide and infrastructure in the country had been destroyed. There was no administration, the population was entirely displaced, either having fled to the Democratic Republic of Congo and other neighbouring countries, or were internally displaced.

So when we took over, it was really a situation of total chaos. We had to reorganize everything, starting from zero. We had to ensure that there was security. We had to create an environment of stability right from scratch. So, it was a very challenging situation and it was extremely difficult but we've been able to take off. When I look back from 1994 and where we are now in 2003, I think there is a very big difference showing that there has been tremendous progress.

Clare Short: Well now, when you look at the country and you are about to go into elections, presidential and parliamentary election, would you have believed in 1994 that Rwanda could have made this much progress in that time?

President KAGAME: Not very easily. One could not really understand in what period of time we would be able to stabilize the situation, to carry out reconciliation and deal with the aftermath of the genocide. We expected that it would take a very long time.

From the 1994 situation to the current situation, there is stability, there is progress in reconciliation, we have been involved with decentralization; we have provinces and districts which are taking a lot of responsibility in their hands. They take responsibility over the affairs of the population in these levels of administration. It was very difficult to imagine that we could overcome this very complex situation in such a short time, given the long history of these problems that were many years old, decades in fact.

Clare Short: Do you feel proud of what has been achieved?

President KAGAME: Extremely proud, and more so because the population has been involved in this. Everyone has been involved, even the victims of the genocide have been making an effort in overcoming their difficulties and contributing to the progress we are making. There is a sense of pride that we made a big difference to all people.

Clare Short: Do you think the present now is irreversible? Do you think Rwanda is safe now from having another outbreak of genocide or killing?

President KAGAME: I believe it will be very difficult to reverse the process because there is a sense that everyone has learned a big lesson from what has happened to us as a nation, and from this, a new culture has developed; a new way of thinking has developed where people feel that we don't deserve this kind of situation. I think there is equal determination that we continue to move forward and put in place institutions that will help us halt anything that would take us back into the situation we experienced in the past.

Clare Short: Do you think people who participated in the genocide, organized in the Congo, tried to invade to get back to the bad days, can be prevented?

President KAGAME: I think it can be prevented. In 1994, this problem was quite challenging. It was a very big problem for us. But then, we have managed to deal with the internal problems, and through regional and international frameworks, we have been able to deal with other issues that have external origins. With the progress we have made, I think we can continue consolidate these achievements. What remains of the problem is much smaller than the part we have dealt with so far. I think it's a matter of time until the remaining problems will also be resolved.

Clare Short: Today we went to a school where after the genocide in 1994, there have been incursions across the border and children were being killed. Can you be confident that those things won't happen again in Rwanda?

President KAGAME: I think such things are not likely to happen again in Rwanda as you might have noticed when you met the villagers, when you met the local people. My feeling when I talk to people up and down the country is there is a sense of determination. I sense a desire to overcome the past and move forward. And given the efforts of the government to rebuild the country, to build new institutions, and the fact that these institutions are becoming stronger in dealing with daily problems, I am confident. The manner in which this has been handled gives me confidence that as we move ahead in the coming years, we should be able to overcome the remaining problems and we should be able to build a firm foundation that gives everyone confidence that such things can't happen again.

Clare Short: You are about to have democratic elections. The country has voted overwhelmingly in the referendum for the new constitution. Are you confident that no matter the outcome, Rwanda will move forward?

President KAGAME: I think Rwanda inevitably will move forward and continues to move forward. We now have a constitution that has been agreed on democratically. We have a constitution that reflects the views of a very big part of our population. I believe on this basis that we put the interest of the country above any individual or any political group. I think a consensus has developed that we should be able to rebuild our country based on a rule of law, based on this constitution that we have formulated ourselves. I think, increasingly, there is a sense that we are moving firmly forward and there is a sense of direction and that everybody is on board. So, the constitution we have put in place is really an embodiment of our diversity. The people have been able to look back into our history, realizing what caused these problems. We have been able to formulate a way forward that would deal with future problems.

Clare Short: I think people in Europe hear stories about killing and killing in Congo, that massive country next to Rwanda. When they hear some connection with Rwanda, I think people are very confused. Could you explain the current situation in the Congo?

President KAGAME: Let's talk a little bit about the background of the Congo's problems and how that relates to Rwanda's situation. I will talk about this problem at two levels.

One is the level of the internal situation of the Congo, which has a very long history and problems of its own, putting into consideration the history of Congo, or Zaire, the colonial history and so on.

The second level is about how this linked up with our situation, Rwanda's situation, which developed in 1994 when we had the genocide in Rwanda and the forces that committed the genocide took along with them a big population and fled into Congo. They engaged the support of the government of Mobutu at that time and so on and so forth.

With the coming of President Laurent Kabila, everyone thought that it was an opportunity to find a solution, not only for the Congo but also for the region, in particular for Rwanda, which had this connexion in terms of how the genocidal forces were benefiting from government support under Mobutu.

Unfortunately, a new situation developed when President Kabila became associated with this group that he was originally fighting. And Rwanda found itself continuing to fight in the DRC against these groups that now got support from the new government in Kinshasa.

It is because we managed to deal with the big part of this problem in Congo that we reduced the capacity of these genocidal forces and militias to continue causing problems to us.

The second aspect was that of the international community and the region, because, in the end we arrived at a point where we had a negotiated settlement. We arrived at that by bringing together all warring parties and the different countries in the region that got involved.

So, we managed to have a peace agreement in place and today the struggle is about how to implement it, how to implement it looking at the long-term solution. I think that one has been partly achieved in a sense that we have the Lusaka Agreement. We have other agreements like the Pretoria Agreement, which provided for the pullout of Rwandan forces from the Congo, but also recognize the problem of the presence of the former soldiers from Rwanda, who must be disarmed and repatriated to Rwanda.

So, we have these problems that relate to us, and then the historical and political problems in the Congo. The Bunia problem is really part of that much bigger problem. It is not a problem you can treat in isolation. You have to deal with it by looking at the global problem affecting the Democratic Republic of Congo. You also have to look at that in a sense of how it affects the countries in the region and specifically how it affects Rwanda and then how it links with the history of genocide in Rwanda.

Clare Short: Why hasn't the Congolese transitional government taken over?

President KAGAME: I have come to a conclusion that the main reason must be a lack of political will to bring peace to the Congo. To be realistic about the situation to the extent that even in our dealings with other key players in the region and even with the government in Kinshasa itself, we have made it clear to them that we think it is important to realize that all these factions in the Congo have to be brought together in a form of power sharing.

Clare Short: But are there some people who don't want peace to be successful?

President KAGAME: Well, part of the problem I think is being narrow-minded in a sense that by somebody wanting to have a more powerful faction, he may delay the whole process. Somebody may be looking at a small problem of their personal position rather than the broader aspect of bringing peace to the Congo and to the majority of the Congolese who are suffering because of the leadership that is handling the situation poorly.

Also, there is a mishandling of the situation even by the international community because sometimes they don't handle the problem politically. They don't look at the real issues that need to be addressed. They only address small issues that keep coming up in isolation without addressing the bigger problem.

Today, if you want to deal with the problem of the Congo, you have to look at putting the transitional government in place. If you have the transitional government in place, you can very easily address most of the smaller issues, meaning smaller in relation to addressing the bigger problem together and creating a peaceful Congo. Therefore, a smaller problem is that of Ituri and other developments in North and South Kivu. These issues should be looked at all together in bringing together the Congo and the factions that have been fighting there.

Clare Short: It is sometimes suggested by those who are hostile to Rwanda that Rwanda's presence in the Congo wasn't about driving back the genocide forces, but it is because you wanted to take territory in the Congo or it was sometimes suggested that you were there for the minerals in the Congo. Would you like to comment on these allegations?

President KAGAME: I would very much like to comment on that by saying that, first of all, before we went to the Congo in 1996, we asked the whole world to help us deal with that situation that was originating from the Congo, where we had militias in tens of thousands, ex-FAR, genocide forces which kept on crossing our borders to kill our people and exterminate one section of our population. And we said we didn't have to go to Congo if the international community is ready to step in and deal with that situation. But they never dealt with the problem even after we had dealt with it partially.

We went to Congo and over the years we dealt with what we had to deal with ourselves and we had always been asking to the international community to take the responsibility over this. They recognized there had been genocide in Rwanda. They knew those who were responsible. They knew they were based in the Congo. They knew they were arming and organizing and continuing to raid across the border and continued to kill our people.

Even today, they still acknowledge the existence of forces that committed the genocide in the eastern Congo. They are still armed, killing people, causing havoc. So, we always ask the same question. What are you doing about it? And why would we have to go there if you had dealt with the problem or if you had taken responsibility and said you were going to deal with it? So, before anybody accuses us of going to Congo for anything aside of this, I think one has to prove that this problem is not there and there hasn't been anybody saying that this problem isn't there. Everybody agrees that it is there, but nobody talks about how it is going to be dealt with.

And for the sake of dealing with the problem, we asked them to make a distinction. Let's treat this situation as having two problems.

One: we have these forces, those who caused the genocide in Rwanda and continue to cause problems in Congo that the international community or we have to fight.

Two: you can have another situation where if anybody has reasons to blame Rwanda for committing any crime, offences, he could be accused of that separately without overlapping the two issues. If any member of our armed forces has been involved in any wrongdoing in the Congo, it should be treated as a wrong, either by our government or even by the international community. But, why should that erase the problem of the ex-FAR, the militias that continue to get arms and want to cross our borders to kill people. Why should one obscure the other? It should be treated separately because these are separate issues.

Clare Short: Are you confident that Rwanda can continue and make progress whether or not this settlement is implemented in the Congo?

President KAGAME: We will continue to make progress in Rwanda because we are in total control of the situation internally. The political stability we have ushered in over the years is here to stay. We will continue to reinforce it. Of course, that only means that we shall be making slower progress or making progress with a lot of difficulty because we still have to pay attention to the problems that exist outside our borders. So, that means that we have to divide resources.

One part will continue to deal with the problems inside the country. Then the other part will deal with attending to the other problems outside our borders. The bottom line for us is to continue to make progress internally.

Clare Short: So, the implementation of peace in Congo would benefit the people of Congo and the Rwandans as well?

President KAGAME: There is no question about that. The implementation of peace in the Congo is of much interest to us as Rwandans, as I'm sure it will be very beneficial to the people of Congo.

Clare Short: You are dealing with the reduction of poverty in Rwanda, big increase in children in school, improvements in health, what more to do? There has been also the constitution and the move to democratic elections. This is a big achievement. Did Rwanda do it on its own?

President KAGAME: I would say, much as we made a remarkable progress in terms of democratisation, in terms of dealing with poverty issues, the stability we are enjoying today and progress and development in social and economic area, Rwanda has played a very big part indeed.

But I should also acknowledge the role of friends of Rwanda in the international community. Much as earlier on I mentioned that there are some prejudice, some people who do not understand the problem we have been facing over the years, but I think one has to acknowledge that there has been support internationally from people who have understood our situation and who have concerns, not generally for people of Rwanda, but for people of Africa and the third world. There are very poor people who, if assisted, can be able to pull out of this situation and better their lives by building on the resources that can be provided by the international community.

Clearly, we have enjoyed support from the United Kingdom through DFID with the provision of support in different areas like in education, poverty eradication, rebuilding our capacities in different institutions like Rwanda Revenue Authority for collecting taxes. These efforts have made a huge difference and we have quickly capitalized on that because the will was and is there. What has been lacking has been the processes to be able to realize our own objectives and goals.

There are countries from Europe, from the United States that have been extremely supportive. I have mentioned UK, also Sweden, Holland and a couple of others. We have a sense that we are doing this in a form of partnership where there is also accountability. We agree on what targets to achieve and by what means they provide, and we make assessments as we go along. We can agree we have made progress together and this form of partnership is extremely important.

Clare Short: If Britain and Rwanda created a strong partnership for development. This is a new model of development in countries where there is no colonial history in common. Does it teach us something about development in other countries?

President KAGAME: Yes it does teach us a lot indeed. As you are aware, people have been asking a lot of questions, like which government has been involved in our situation since there is no colonial history. I really believe this is the wrong way of looking at things. People cannot be partners in terms of development just on the basis of colonial history. It is on the basis that a situation demands support, demands help and help just makes a difference, not because of the colonial history.

This new model of development is very good in a sense that it encapsulates two very important issues in my opinion.

One has been OWNERSHIP and the other has been PARTNERSHIP. In our case, there is a sense that Rwandans have been clearly elaborating what needs to be done for them based on their efforts and understanding of where they want to take their country. On that background, we have forged a partnership with the British government and few other cases are developing. We work as partners focussing on how we can develop our poor people without consideration of historical connections, but rather focussing on the overall goodness in helping poor people to improve their lives and be able to depend on their own capacities and resources to continue towards a better future. So, I think that has formed a good basis for partnership for development. The importance of that partnership and also the ownership is to help people take their destiny in their own hands.

Clare Short: And there are other countries in Africa now wanting to work in this new way?

President KAGAME: Learning through these examples, I am aware of countries like Tanzania and a couple of others have been moving forward on this. I think it's important that more get involved with this kind of situation.

ENDS.